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  • The Wild Won't Be Haunted By the Ghosts Of Prospect Pools Past


    Image courtesy of Paul Rutherford-USA Today Sports
    Tony Abbott

    It makes sense that your focus turns towards the future when you're not super excited about the here-and-now. Unless signing Patrick Maroon sent you to take time off work for next June so you could be clear to attend the Minnesota Wild's Stanley Cup Parade, that might be the spot you're in right now. And there are a lot of future assets to get excited about.

    The Athletic's Scott Wheeler dropped his list of the top-50 NHL prospects on Tuesday. The Wild have three prospects on the list, with Marco Rossi (No. 30), Liam Öhgren (40), and Danila Yurov (47). Only the tanking Chicago Blackhawks (five prospects in the top-50) and Columbus Blue Jackets (four) have more representation.

    It also gets better for the Wild. For one, had this list included goalies, all-world netminder prospect Jesper Wallstedt would surely bump Minnesota up to four members in that top-50. Even without Wallstedt in the mix, four more Wild prospects were acknowledged among 76 honorable mentions. Seven prospects in Wheeler's top-126 ties Columbus and the Anaheim Ducks for the NHL lead.

    Now, this is all one scout's opinion, but it confirms the belief that the Wild's future is bright. A thought not felt since around 2012. Which leads reader TCMooch to ask in the comments of our article about the prospect pool from Monday:

    Quote

    Mr. Tony—I would love to see you do a comparison of this prospect pool to the other ranked prospect pool we had about 10 years ago with Granlund, Coyle, Zucker, Borodin and Dumba. That prospect pool really turned into magic beans for us.

    There's no doubt that the Wild had a small army of exciting prospects going into the 2012-13 lockout season. In just three years, the Wild injected the following first-and-second-rounders into their system:

    2010 Draft: Mikael Granlund (No. 9 overall), Brett Bulmer (39th), Johan Larsson (56th), Jason Zucker (59th)
    2011 Draft: Jonas Brodin (10th), Zack Phillips (28th), Mario Lucia (60th)
    2012 Draft: Matt Dumba (7th), Raphael Bussieres (46th)
    Via Trade: Charlie Coyle (28th in 2010, Brent Burns trade), Nino Niederreiter (5th in 2010, Cal Clutterbuck trade)

    Much like the Zach Parise and Ryan Suter signings that happened simultaneously, these names would eventually leave a bitter taste in the State of Hockey's mouth. We know the story: The Wild never got past the second round with the core of this group, which Paul "The Mad King" Fenton mostly dismantled during his reign. With Dumba likely walking in free agency, only Brodin remains as the last vestige of this would-be dynasty.

    It's fair to ask, over a decade later: What the heck happened?

    In some ways, nothing. Or at least, nothing seriously wrong. In a lot of ways, most of this core group was a home run for the Wild. Look at the careers these players had. You can count Brodin, Coyle, Dumba, Granlund, Niederreiter, and Zucker as all having long careers as top-six caliber forwards. Look at where these guys rank in terms of career Standings Points Above Replacement (SPAR) among their draft classes:

    Niederreiter: 33.7 SPAR (eighth among Class of 2010)
    Zucker: 30.1 SPAR (11th among 2010)
    Brodin: 26.8 SPAR (12th among 2011, first among defensemen)
    Granlund: 23.5 SPAR (14th among 2010)
    Coyle: 23.4 SPAR (15th among 2010)
    Dumba: 18.8 SPAR (10th among 2012, fifth among defensemen)
    Larsson: 11.2 (29th among 2010)

    Out of those 11 high picks, that's six players who were among the top-15 NHLers in their class, and seven among the top-30. And we're not talking about these guys going with top draft picks, either. Instead of getting Granlund, Zucker, Brodin, and Dumba, it wouldn't have been hard for them to walk away instead with Dylan McIlrath (10th in 2010), Stephen Johns (60th in 2010), Duncan Siemens (11th in 2011), and Derrick Pouliot (8th in 2012). Then where would the Wild be?

    That's not to say this era of Wild drafting was flawless. The Wild tried to get players in the Milan Lucic grit-and-skilled mold with Bulmer and Bussieres, and they flopped. The biggest knock against them, though, was taking lead-footed Zack Phillips in the 2011 Draft, became a bust while later picks like John Gibson (39th overall), Brandon Saad (43rd), and especially Nikita Kucherov (58th) went off the board before the Wild could pick again.

    Even the hits could've been bigger. Had the Wild not been so gun-shy with taking Russians until Kirill Kaprizov, they might have fallen in love with Vladimir Tarasenko (16th overall in 2010, 38.3 career SPAR) over Granlund. You can't say that wouldn't have looked nicer. The Wild got a top-10 player with a top-10 pick in 2012 with Dumba, but there's no doubting that Filip Forsberg (11th in 2012, class-leading 36.5 career SPAR) would have been a much better pick.

    So, in some ways, the Wild got very lucky. Most of their picks were solid contributors for years and generally performed to the level of or surpassed their draft slot. In some ways, they did not. None of these players turned into a Tarasenko or Kucherov or Forsberg-type impact player.

    Hockey Prospecting sets their quick-and-dirty standard for stardom at 0.7-plus points per game for forwards, and 0.45 points per game for defensemen. Here's how this class of prospects stacks up in terms of career point production and individual star seasons:

    image.png

    Now, I don't have to tell you that points are far from the best way to assess a player. With the exceptions of Coyle and Granlund, these players were, at their peaks, analytics darlings whose impact measured far beyond their point totals. It is true, though, that having so many analytics darlings didn't get them over the hump, largely because there weren't many star-caliber forwards to put the puck in the net come playoff time. The points aren't an end-all-be-all, but they're relevant.

    So we know what went wrong back in 2010. What is stopping this group from going by the same wayside?

    Well, first, let's get a handle on who this group even is. Let's list the first-and-second-rounders the Wild acquired since the 2019 Draft as a starting point.

    2019: Matt Boldy (12th overall), Vladislav Firstov (42nd), Hunter Jones (59th)
    2020: Rossi (ninth), Marat Khusnutdinov (37th), Ryan O'Rourke (39th)
    2021: Wallstedt (20th), Carson Lambos (26th), Jack Peart (54th)
    2022: Öhgren (19th), Yurov (24th), Hunter Haight (47th), Rieger Lorenz (56th)
    2023: Charlie Stramel (21st), Rasmus Kumpulainen (53rd), Riley Heidt (64th)
    Trade: Calen Addison (53rd in 2018, Zucker trade), Brock Faber (45th in 2020, Kevin Fiala trade)

    Go ahead, take a moment to catch your breath. I'll wait.

    The thing most stands out when comparing this group to the 2012 class is the sheer amount of quantity. Fletcher's early 2010s Wild rebuilt quickly and impressively, grabbing 11 first-and-second round picks in a three-year span. They immediately started cashing in, and justifiably so. When Parise and Suter come in, it's go-time, and ultimately trading, say, Larsson and Matt Hackett, and two high picks for Jason Pominville helped them way more than it hurt.

    Guerin's Wild might have a cash-in phase down the road, but we're looking at five years of largely uninterrupted prospect capital accumulation. Instead of 11 first-and-second-rounders, we see 18 on this list. This doesn't even include later-round prospects that excite the Wild organization, like Adam Beckman (third-round, 2019), Daemon Hunt (third-round, 2020), and David Spacek (fifth-round, 2022), to name a few.

    Unless you get the top picks, prospects are going to be a numbers game in the NHL. And this version of the Wild organization has numbers. 

    Speaking of numbers, one thing Minnesota seems to do now is actively target prospects with the upside that comes from a proven history of scoring. It's not in every case, but a Wild prospect in the 2020s is much more likely to put up points than the average Fletcher draft pick. Let's look at these draft picks through the lens of Hockey Prospecting's Star Probabilities.

    Here are the top-10 2012-ish Wild prospects and their star probabilities after their draft year and their draft-plus-three season:

    image.png

    Granlund was the closest thing they got to a surefire star in this group, and he was only ever a coin flip that ended up landing stuck at a 90-degree angle. They admirably shot their shot with Bertschy, a sixth-round pick who put up huge numbers in Swiss juniors, but lost that gamble outright. Other than that, Phillips (ironically, the bust) and Dumba were the only players that had a one-in-four chance of stardom on the day of their draft.

    Let's now contrast this with the Wild's current group.

    Here are the 10 best Wild prospects in terms of their draft day star probability, with how much it's been raised or lowered since, using their draft-plus-three percentage when applicable. If not, I'll denote their current mark with a (C):

    image.png

    The difference is staggering. To truly grasp this, we only need to look at Beckman, who would have finished tied for 16th on this list. He had a 14% star probability when the Wild drafted him. On the Fletcher Wild prospect list, Beckman would've finished tied for eighth with Niederreiter. Moreover, after his draft-plus-three season, his 10% star probability would be third behind Granlund and Dumba.

    Today, Beckman is one of ten prospects who currently have a 10% or greater chance of becoming a star (Lambos and Spacek are the other ones not currently on the list). That doesn't sound like much, and it's not. But if you've got 10 darts that all have a 10% chance or higher of hitting, that's a great spot to be in.

    There are also two other areas where today's youth movement has a massive one-up on the group which came before it. We haven't even factored goaltending into the equation, and Wallstedt is far ahead of what the Wild were packing in net at the start of last decade.

    image.png

    Kuemper ended up (eventually) being a very good NHL goalie, but Wallstedt is by miles a more advanced and NHL-ready goalie prospect. Furthermore, they might have more stability in net than Kuemper had ahead of him, provided they can secure Filip Gustavsson's services while breaking in Wallstedt to the NHL. Minnesota threw Kuemper in the deep end on a team that was expected to win now. The Wild's current cap situation and prospect timetables mean most fans won't have that expectation for another two years. 

    The other thing is that the Wild might already have a "star" in the NHL already, and maybe two. Boldy has scored 0.80 points per game in 128 contests in the NHL. Addison has flaws to his overall game that he may or may not be able to clean up, but he scored 29 points in 62 games as a rookie. That's 0.47 points per game, which clears Hockey Prospecting's "Star" threshold. Counting the 18 games he played before this season, and Addison is already at 0.41 points per game for his career, and he should only be expected to pick up the pace.

    If the Wild already have two star-level point producers in hand from this prospect system, that takes so much burden off the rest of the group right off the bat. You'd still want Minnesota to churn out some other star-caliber players, of course, but their eggs aren't all in one basket. That's probably the biggest thing that went wrong with the Fletcher-era group. They got a bunch of solid NHL-caliber players, but if Granlund didn't become a game-breaking player, Minnesota would turn into a miasma of mediocrity. That all happened.

    With Boldy and (hopefully) Addison providing star-level production for this next young core, it's not a disaster if Rossi or Heidt only become a Granlund or Zucker-level producer. Someone like Faber can embrace a Brodin-like shutdown role without everyone in St. Paul tapping their watches waiting for more offense to come. The high-end talent is important, but a lot of these players are (likely) going to be those solid complimentary pieces. That's fine, as long as the Wild have a main event for them to complement.

    There's plenty of time for things to go wrong, of course. Until proven otherwise, you should assume prospects going to be as good as the local media (Hockey Wilderness, the most trustworthy source in the hockey world being the lone exception, of course) and team hype them up to be. Aside from Boldy, none of this is in the bag yet. But at least right now, it looks like this version of the Wild's young core far exceeds the Granlund Generation in terms of raw upside, production, and sheer depth. Any time you take to get worried about the ghosts of the past is time you'd be much happier spending getting hyped for the future. 

    All SPAR data from Evolving Hockey, all prospect data from Hockey Prospecting unless otherwise stated.

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    20 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

    ^ ie GREEF 2021-22.

    Good example of why +/- is pretty useless, too. JEEK was 11th on the team in +/- that year with a +16. Did anyone think like, Mats Zuccarello (+21). Ryan Hartman at +31? Alex Goligoski with a top-10 mark of +41???

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    +/- isn't worth a damn.  2nd assist isn't a point.  Shots on goal is dumb.  Save % is half the story. etc etc.

    Stats need to be updated.  Isn't there a some math dude working on this?

     

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    On 7/22/2023 at 12:42 PM, mnfaninnc said:

    I completely agree, that's why I said +/- types of stats, not the actual +/-. I'm sure there are fancy stats that do this. If you have a guy who scores 100 points, yet is on the ice for more goals scored against him than for him, that seems like not a very valuable player. If you've got a guy who doesn't put up many points, yet, when he's on the ice the team scores twice as many as they give up, that's a valuable player. If that guy can do it in ALL situations, that is an elite player.

    The issue with exactly what you said is that it lacks context. To determine a player's value based on goals scored while they're on the ice when they have little to with with that goal for or against doesn't mean anything. That's the reason plus/minus is such a flawed stat. A player heading to the bench while his team scores a goal gets a plus, while a goalie making a mistake behind the net getting scored on, the rest of his team gets a minus. 

    And in your scenario, a 100 point player is very unlikely to have been on the ice for more goals than he has been a part of. Alex Ovechkin was a brutal plus/minus player a few years back. But it would be stupid to say that he isn't both valuable and a great player.

    In regards to Addison, he must play and take his lumps. He had Joe Hicketts's as his defensive pairing in Iowa 2 seasons ago and was just fine. Yeah, laspes happened, but they happen for Spurgeon, Brodin, and even all-star defensemen regularly. Goals are scored that way. I think Merrill was a truly awful partner for him, yet people gave Merrill a pass for lapses that were as egregious or worse that a NHL vet should otherwise not be susceptible to.

    I just think it's crazy for the team to pull the plug on a young defenseman that helped quarterback a power play that had all the same members last year and the year before and struggled, but with his quick, decisive puck movement, found more success.

    Evason has to let his players play and come whatever may. They need to figure out if these players are the players that will help them to get to that goal of a Stanley Cup or not. Only way to know is giving them time. 

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    ^^^

    Playing time yes. Waiting forever for development time, eh not great. Give em chances but set expectations at impact-player level. If guys are non-factors out there, then I'd rather get more Sam Steels or Freddy Gs, etc. for < 2M. If we're looking at placeholders, or ride-along guys, just trade em and try again with different players that might hit with chemistry or something positive as a result of the additional kick at the can.

    Walker, Rossi, and Beckman are all good candidates to make an impact this season. Let's hope one or two of these guys can stick in the NHL or fill in nicely when there's an injury.

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    On 8/5/2023 at 2:25 PM, joebou15 said:

    The issue with exactly what you said is that it lacks context. To determine a player's value based on goals scored while they're on the ice when they have little to with with that goal for or against doesn't mean anything. That's the reason plus/minus is such a flawed stat. A player heading to the bench while his team scores a goal gets a plus, while a goalie making a mistake behind the net getting scored on, the rest of his team gets a minus. 

    I agree with the flaw, but those anomalies typically even out over time. But, as far as Addison goes, did the +/- stat match the eye test? Yes, it indeed did. In fact, I think he was more brutal than the stat line showed. 

    Merrill is at best a 3rd pairing defender. He has extreme limitations. So, exactly which defender were you teaming Addison with? It was very apparent he did not deserve extra ice time. Pair him with Brodin? What good will that do, Addison wasn't ready to play 23 minutes a game. Brodin certainly was. Addison had to be on the 3rd pairing, and Goligoski was a worse partner for him according to the eye test. 

    But, my problem isn't the mistakes so much as the attitude. I realize 21 year old defensemen will make mistakes and we do have to take our lumps. The problems stem from repeating the same mistakes, and showing a disinterest in defending properly, specifically canceling out an opponent with the body. Addison showed that and it was frustrating to watch. I noticed the same tendency in Mike Reilly before he came up, and knew he was going to be trouble. 

    Simply put, Addison's game needs to change and adapt to better competition. What he was able to get away with before, he can no longer get away with. And he seems to be a bit hard headed about changing.

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    8 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

    I agree with the flaw, but those anomalies typically even out over time. But, as far as Addison goes, did the +/- stat match the eye test? Yes, it indeed did. In fact, I think he was more brutal than the stat line showed. 

    Merrill is at best a 3rd pairing defender. He has extreme limitations. So, exactly which defender were you teaming Addison with? It was very apparent he did not deserve extra ice time. Pair him with Brodin? What good will that do, Addison wasn't ready to play 23 minutes a game. Brodin certainly was. Addison had to be on the 3rd pairing, and Goligoski was a worse partner for him according to the eye test. 

    But, my problem isn't the mistakes so much as the attitude. I realize 21 year old defensemen will make mistakes and we do have to take our lumps. The problems stem from repeating the same mistakes, and showing a disinterest in defending properly, specifically canceling out an opponent with the body. Addison showed that and it was frustrating to watch. I noticed the same tendency in Mike Reilly before he came up, and knew he was going to be trouble. 

    Simply put, Addison's game needs to change and adapt to better competition. What he was able to get away with before, he can no longer get away with. And he seems to be a bit hard headed about changing.

    Hard-headed, maybe even a little prideful of what he does offer. Idk, I kind of like a guy that is passed about getting pulled, maybe for reasons he doesn't agree with, and wants to show that he's good. 

     

    Sure, at 21 he's got a lot to learn, but I feel that he's got to be given that chance to learn. I have a long, long list of picks to nit about Dean's "work" here. I think he likes to operate on auto-pilots as much as he can. Call me not impressed with him.

    Boldy is just that good, but name me another rookie prospect that you could say he's brought along without messing with confidence, ice time, a chance to learn, and a chance to properly communicate. Don't see many that weren't already guys that were his prototypical grinder style players. He's barely developed skill players. And he's coaching trying to not mess up, rather than actually coach.

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    15 hours ago, joebou15 said:

    He's barely developed skill players. And he's coaching trying to not mess up, rather than actually coach.

    I think he started out coaching to develop players. Somewhere along the way he lost his way. I'd agree with coaching to try and not mess up. I'd also observe that he has put more of a priority on winning than on developing the last 2 seasons. I guess he's trying to prove he can be the trophy coach and not just the starter coach, but he's failed in that aspect. 

    If you're singling out Rossi on this, I think I'd agree with you. He should have been hounding Rossi to skate hard, not glide and drive his play. Instead, he just cut Rossi's TOI.

    With Addison, I believe the deficiencies were met with patience until they just couldn't take it anymore. Every time Addison was on the ice not on the PP, I was waiting for defensive mistakes, brutal errors. Typically, I didn't have to wait long. And the answers came down to control of gaps, eliminating a player, don't let him crash the net. He would typically fail on all of these counts. I'd love for Addison to succeed. But, to do so, he's got to be packing 190 and be strong enough to physically hold off players. I know he'll never have Dumba's propensity for contact, but just holding his own would be a drastic improvement.

    I thought he has given Beckman and Walker chances, and both showed some spark but in the end it is a numbers game and they both still had work to do. Faber, I believe was given some rope, but he probably earned more TOI than the staff was willing to give him. In games 4-6, it would have been interesting what they would have done with Faber had we been protecting leads. 

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    On 8/7/2023 at 9:55 AM, mnfaninnc said:

     

    But, my problem isn't the mistakes so much as the attitude. I realize 21 year old defensemen will make mistakes and we do have to take our lumps. The problems stem from repeating the same mistakes, and showing a disinterest in defending properly, specifically canceling out an opponent with the body. Addison showed that and it was frustrating to watch. I noticed the same tendency in Mike Reilly before he came up, and knew he was going to be trouble. 

    Simply put, Addison's game needs to change and adapt to better competition. What he was able to get away with before, he can no longer get away with. And he seems to be a bit hard headed about changing.

    This is my thing. I replied to someone (hell may have been you Lol.)the other day about Addison’s seemingly unwillingness to utilize the resources he has in his own locker room. Spuregon is the ultimate undersized defenseman to learn from with how good of stick skills and positional skills Spurgeon has. I found a snippet from that Athletic article of Spurgons quote I was looking for the other day. 
     

    He never really comes over to ask anything,” Spurgeon said.

    Not really the best way to go about things when you’re “pissed off” about getting scratched. Few things he’s said have really cooled me on Addison ever being an integral blueliner for us  

     

    Edited by M_Nels
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    21 hours ago, M_Nels said:

    This is my thing. I replied to someone (hell may have been you Lol.)the other day about Addison’s seemingly unwillingness to utilize the resources he has in his own locker room. Spuregon is the ultimate undersized defenseman to learn from with how good of stick skills and positional skills Spurgeon has. I found a snippet from that Athletic article of Spurgons quote I was looking for the other day. 
     

    He never really comes over to ask anything,” Spurgeon said.

    Not really the best way to go about things when you’re “pissed off” about getting scratched. Few things he’s said have really cooled me on Addison ever being an integral blueliner for us  

    I remember reading your comment from Spurgeon. This is troubling.

    1. Spurgeon is the Captain. He would be the natural player to go to.
    2. Spurgeon is smaller but more effective, how does he do it?
    3. Spurgeon has been in the league a long time playing as a smaller player.

    It just makes too much sense for Addison to consult him. I wonder if Spurgeon has reached out? 

    Training Camp among the defenders should be extra spicy this year!

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