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  • The Zach Bogosian Trade Is Bill Guerin Doubling Down On Grit


    Image courtesy of David Berding-USA Today Sports
    Tony Abbott

    The gritty, veteran-laden Minnesota Wild are stumbling to a 5-5-2 start this season. Alarmingly, despite the premium the team has put on keeping their hardest-working and grittiest players, the team hasn't consistently shown those qualities so far. They're giving up scoring chances much too easily, contributing to the second-highest goals against rate at 5-on-5 in the NHL.

    What's the solution? There's only one way: Bill Guerin had to get the Wild more grit. Enter Zach Bogosian, the 33-year-old, 6-foot-3 defenseman who stepped in after Minnesota flipped 23-year-old puck-mover Calen Addison to the San Jose Sharks.

    The top of Bogosian's Hockey Reference page checks a lot of boxes for what the Wild are looking for. They want more size on the blueline? Check. They want a veteran? Wow, look at this, he's got almost 800 games of experience. They want A Winner? Check this box out, it says "1x Cup Winner." You can't say it's not there!

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    "[Bogosian's] bigger. He's heavier," Guerin told the media over Zoom after the trade on Wednesday. "The experience, not just playing in the league, but winning and being on a championship team... I just think that's something we need to improve upon."

    Bogosian's time in Minnesota is going to be linked to the Addison trade, and that's probably fair. After all, the Wild moved Addison to free up the roster and salary cap space to bring Bogosian in. It didn't have to be this way. The Wild could have put Jon Merrill or Dakota Mermis on waivers and accomplished the same thing.

    It's not a great look to tout a bright future and give up on a skilled, productive young defenseman to bring in a much older, short-term fix. That's going to make bringing in Bogosian seem worse than it is.

    The thing is, bringing in Bogosian in the first place is a mistake, even when completely divorced from the Addison situation.

    It should be noted that the Wild's cap situation gives them limited options. Their moves have to be dollar-in, dollar-out, essentially, because of their being perilously close to the cap. Size on the blueline is always at a premium, and importing that quality on the cheap in November is going to be difficult.

    Even with the understanding that the baseline for talent will be lower for this kind of player, historically, bringing in Bogosian is not worth doing.

    A player with limitations offensively and in transition can still be useful if they are able to defend well and clear the front of the net. From Jake Middleton, to Merrill, to Dmitry Kulikov, all the way back to Nick Seeler and Nate Prosser, Wild fans are familiar with this type of player. You accept what they can't do because of their specialized skills, even if those aren't glorified.

    That's not the kind of player Bogosian is. He's big, yes. He'll put up hit and blocked shot numbers. But when it comes to playing effective defense? Limiting chances to the front of the net? Protecting his goalies? That's not who he is. It never has been.

    On the bottom of this chart from HockeyViz, we can see where Bogosian is most likely to give up shots. At both 5-on-5 (left) and the penalty kill (right), we see that he gives up high-danger chances at a significantly higher rate than the NHL average.

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    A fanbase that has seen Jonas Brodin and Jared Spurgeon shut down the middle for over a decade doesn't need anyone to explain that defending is much more about size. How well can you skate? How well can you anticipate what the offense is going to do? Bogosian's toolkit has never translated to strong defense at any stop in his career, whether for bottom-of-the-barrel teams like the Buffalo Sabres and Atlanta/Winnipeg ThrasherJets, or top contenders like the Lightning and Toronto Maple Leafs.

    We could point out that Bogosian has been a below-replacement level player in terms of Evolving-Hockey's Standings Points Above Replacement for eight of his 15 NHL seasons. That measure of overall impact is damning enough, but the real horror show is when you isolate his defensive impact.

    Bogosian's defense has only been above replacement level in two of his 15 seasons. The years in question were 2014-15, the year the Jets traded him to the Sabres, and 2017-18 when he played only 18 games for Buffalo. That's it. Every other year, he's been a worse defender than your average AHL call-up.

    His longevity and consistency mean his defense ranks fourth-worst in the Analytics Era (2007-08 to today). Only Keith Yandle, Jack Johnson, and Tony DeAngelo have a bigger negative career impact on that side of the puck. Bogosian's defense alone has cost his teams about 10 SPAR over his career, or a little more than a point per 82-game season.

    This is merely over his entire career. We haven't gotten into his 30-something years, where he's been in decline with Lightning. Here's how he's fared compared to the league average in the past three seasons:

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    It's hard to get a better environment for someone like Bogosian. He's spent the past three seasons playing sheltered minutes, including with both high-profile defensemen like Victor Hedman and Mikhail Sergachev and effective defenders in T.J. Brodie and Travis Dermott. All of his time in those three seasons were for true championship-caliber teams. His penalty kill responsibilities were even relatively light.

    And in an ideal assignment, Bogosian stumbled instead of shining. Over the past two seasons, he cost Tampa Bay about 4.3 points in the standings. His defense was atrocious, bleeding high-danger chances in both years, as seen below:

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    Again, this was on a top team with the luxury of loaded rosters capable of putting up 100 points in their sleep, and only needed to play him in a part-time role which exposed him to around 15 minutes a night with few special teams duties.

    The Wild are a point behind the Arizona Coyotes for the last Wild Card spot. They have a hole to dig out of, and their trust in the bottom of their defensive depth chart is non-existent. Minnesota will likely count on Bogosian to play crucial penalty kill minutes and harder defensive assignments. Even if Spurgeon's return keeps him around the 15-minute per night mark, without Addison, Minnesota is one injury away from having to play Bogosian as a top-four defenseman. 

    The Wild wanted to double down on the old-school identity they aspire to and play their typical hard-working, physical style. But Minnesota's identity isn't just about muscle and grit; it's about converting that into either scoring or preventing goals.

    Getting Bogosian to solve their defensive woes (barring an unforeseen improvement from a 33-year-old) fights counter to the identity that they're trying to preserve. Bogosian is being asked to do a job that, historically, he can not do. Guerin and the Wild depending on Bogosian to perform in a shutdown role feels more like throwing grit at their problems than it does a rational solution. 

    All data via Evolving-Hockey unless otherwise specified.

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    I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

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    2 minutes ago, MNCountryLife said:

    I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

    Russo's article pointed out:

    • Bogosian lives in MN in the offseason
    • Bogosian's brother works for the Wild in their 'Personal Performance' analytics group
    • Bogosian is good friends with Maroon

    Fake Bill Guerin Quote:

    Quote

    We bought out Parise and Suter to get rid of the 'country-club' atmosphere in this locker room, so I could bring in guys to create the ideal 'last stop before retirement' atmosphere.  You got a team that can win some games, but also an inviting place guys nearing 40 still want to play for.  We might not be winning games, but damnit this pays better than beer league does!

     

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    1 hour ago, MNCountryLife said:

    I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

    Not much downside? Going from someone who was a little more offense focused to inputting a dud enforcer is not going to shore up our hemorrhaging third pair. Addison wasn't a defensive stud but he was better than Merrill or Goligoski has been showing this year. He was passable in a sheltered role. 

    As outlined above Bogosian isn't even capable in the most ideal of situations. So we sold a young defenseman with clear offensive upside who was a little lacking on the defensive side for a 5th and got back an utterly incapable bag of concrete for a seventh? That seems like nothing but a losing proposition.

    What happened to f*cking winning? The club's growth and winning should be number one, not giving Addison a one way ticket to San Jose because he was a little sassy to Big Baby Guerin. Not giving away young players for nothing because they aren't the right size. Not shipping away prospects because they don't play the prototypical game you covet. 

    I think more than anything, this proves that both Guerin and Evason are blind to any talent beyond Grit. They will never develop or value players that don't play in their image.  

    The one thing this team sure didn't need was to get older, slower and take more penalties and we just hit on all three.  

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    Looks like our 2 best + -  D leaders in the post season are  Middleton and Bogosian  theyre actually in the + side  ,    Middleton is better than Bodosian even though Tampas been an Offensive juggernaut .   Maybe there is something to that grit   , Maroon is slower but he appears to be steady with the puck and usually gets a good pass off to the crease 

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    39 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    I think more than anything, this proves that both Guerin and Evason are blind to any talent beyond Grit. They will never develop or value players that don't play in their image.  

    Since Billy's been GM the 1st rounders have been: Boldy, Rossi, Wall, Ohgren & Stramel. That doesn't include all the later round picks for who else we have in the pipeline. Wall is the exception since he's a goalie but you can't argue these other picks are guys that "play in their image". 

    Too nearsighted to call for Billy's head and call him a bust of a GM for bringing in 1yr rentals. Got some exciting prospects in the system that aren't in the mold of Maroon, Reaves, BOGO etc. NOW that being said you can make an argument for Dean and his ability for development/utilization of these guys. IMO you can't lump Billy & Dean together in this aspect. Will Dean still be here when the younger guys start to come up? We can hope not but 1yr rentals in cap hell don't define your GM and his draft picks. 

     

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    2 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    As outlined above Bogosian isn't even capable in the most ideal of situations. So we sold a young defenseman with clear offensive upside who was a little lacking on the defensive side for a 5th and got back an utterly incapable bag of concrete for a seventh? That seems like nothing but a losing proposition.

    The best that Wild goalies have performed with Addison on the ice is an 88.2% save percentage, and their goalies performed well above that mark without him on the ice.

    In Tampa the last 2 seasons, their goalies had better than a 92.0% save percentage both years when Bogo was on the ice, and their goalies all finished below that mark for those years.

    If neither is playing penalty kill minutes, which one is truly worse for real high danger chances?

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    4 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    The best that Wild goalies have performed with Addison on the ice is an 88.2% save percentage, and their goalies performed well above that mark without him on the ice.

    In Tampa the last 2 seasons, their goalies had better than a 92.0% save percentage both years when Bogo was on the ice, and their goalies all finished below that mark for those years.

    If neither is playing penalty kill minutes, which one is truly worse for real high danger chances?

    Andrei Vasilevskiy had a .920 save percentage when Bogosian was on the ice? Stop the presses. 

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    4 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

    Russo's article pointed out:

    • Bogosian lives in MN in the offseason
    • Bogosian's brother works for the Wild in their 'Personal Performance' analytics group
    • Bogosian is good friends with Maroon

    Fake Bill Guerin Quote:

     

    It appears my original thought was indeed correct. Another bone headed BG move designed not to improve the squad,  but to surround himself with more golf/drinking buddies. I simply cannot wait for the next move. This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Yikes!!

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    A lot of unhappy campers with this trade.  Addison wasn't getting the ice time... nor was Dean going to give it to him in the near future.  So I am glad Addison is at least able to go to a team and get a chance.  We should at least be happy for Addison.  If players feel they are not being treated fairly or others on the team are not getting deserved chances... it can really hurt the locker room.

    I'm not real familiar with Bogosian.  I'll at least give the guy a chance in a Wild sweater.    What a coach asks of a player can dictate penalty minutes and how they produce on the ice.  I'll be curious to see how Dean uses him.

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    Guerin is an idiot and has to go. I'll probably get my wish once the Marcus Foligno contract expires in 4 years and Kaprizov has gone on to a better managed team that is actually a threat in the playoffs.

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    Honestly, at this rate I can't wait for a forward to get hurt and instead of calling up somebody with talent from our prospect pool he just goes out and signs Nick Ritchie because "he ticks all the right boxes".

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    I'm going to hold off on the we should be happy for Addison or a player friendly deal for Addison until I hear from  Addison on how he honestly feels about being traded to the worst team in the league for a used stick bag. Of course we will never know. 

    BG has a way of creating a toxic environment for players that he doesn't really care for and it doesn't take much to be that player. The boxes that need to be checked are you are young with promising skills that maybe need a little time to develop, you are under 200 pounds and you have not won a Cup on a team somewhere else a long time ago. Oh and if you have more than two years to play before you hang it up. 

    I think BG lacks a few people skills that are required to be a good NHL GM. 

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    1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

    BG has a way of creating a toxic environment for players that he doesn't really care for and it doesn't take much to be that player.

    This is what seems to be exposing itself over BG’s time here.  Might just be a BG quirk.  Might be something more sinister.  This quirk might explain the extensions for players being rewarded for their loyalty.  This might get a little insular/incestuous over time.  
    again, if we’re winning 2-3 years from now no one will care, but if we’re still going sideways BG will look like a 3rd world dictator

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    13 hours ago, TCMooch said:

    Guerin is an idiot and has to go. I'll probably get my wish once the Marcus Foligno contract expires in 4 years and Kaprizov has gone on to a better managed team that is actually a threat in the playoffs.

    Kaprizov isn't doing himself any favors right now either, doesn't look like the same dynamic, gamebreaking player we've come accustom to.

    Curious on why you think Guerin is such an idiot? I don't agree with several of his decisions, mainly the Zucc, Freddy, Moose extensions for the money and term but I think they are trending in the right direction with the latest draft picks. Bringing in 1yr rentals in cap hell doesn't make him an idiot.

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    15 hours ago, Tony Abbott said:

    Andrei Vasilevskiy had a .920 save percentage when Bogosian was on the ice? Stop the presses. 

    I did say better than. It was 94.5% in 2021-2022. I know it's a team stat, so it's certainly not all Bogosian, but consistently having a low number for that stat still looks bad for an individual, in my opinion.

    The Lightning finished those seasons with .913 and .909 team goalie save percentages.  The Wild finished those seasons with team goalie save percentages of .911 and .919, so the Wild saved a higher percentage of shots over that span of time, but Addison's team was far worse when he was on the ice.

    Bogo doesn't really help offense, so his +/- isn't great either, but still ends up better than the guy Guerin just dropped to the Sharks. Over those 2 seasons, Tampa was about 5 total goals better in goal differential, so not a drastic difference there. Bogo was -2 in 94 games. Addison was -21 in 81 games.

    No question that Addison has more potential, but I guess they thought it was best to let him realize it elsewhere.

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    7 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    Bogo doesn't really help offense, so his +/- isn't great either, but still ends up better than the guy Guerin just dropped to the Sharks.

    It might be just the beard, but Bogo is a super sized Jordie Benn.  Slightly better than Benn in every aspect of his game.  Didn’t mind bogo's game at all.  Good to have a big, intimidating dman on the roster. 

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    Just now, Pewterschmidt said:

    Good to have a big, intimidating dman on the roster. 

    Speaking of that, I was just looking at Vancouver's roster and they now have both of the Wild's 3rd pairing D-men from 2020-2021.

    Ian Cole and Carson Soucy both have nice size and play winning hockey. Rick Tocchet really has that squad playing at a high level. Canucks are leading the league in goal differential by 12 goals over the next closest team!

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    16 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    I was just looking at Vancouver's roster and they now have both of the Wild's 3rd pairing D-men from 2020-2021.

    More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

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    2 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

    Much easier.  Grit is nowhere near equal to talent.  Grit & talent = $$

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    6 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

    They are being paid $3M(Cole) and $3.25M(Soucy) per year, which would be 3rd and 4th among Wild defensemen. The cap hits really hurt the depth talent.

    I'm very interested to see how the Wild perform with Spurgeon back.

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    15 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    I'm very interested to see how the Wild perform with Spurgeon back.

    Probably no one near as excited as Mids that he’s coming back. We all know what Faber-Brodin can do, 2nd pairing is stable  now and we get a look at Bogo-Mermis to see how they do. Expecting it to be much better. 

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    Pewterschmidt said: More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

    True but it's the reason they cost more and are more difficult to retain along with potentially having other issues like injuries, temperament, consistently, etc.

    I think MN would be better off today had Spurgeon and Boldy been around from day one. At the same time Guerin's moves might be polarizing but they're generally not big risks. At this point, his recent contracts haven't been the singular reason for MN's struggles. Does it appear to be something that will handcuff the team? Sure, I would say yes today but plenty can happen in the coming months let alone next few years. 

    I like that Guerin isn't static. If Addison isn't doing what the Wild want him to do, then how long do you hold a guy the coach doesn't intend to play much? As far as Bogo, he's exactly what teams in the Central need. The Wild need more from Boldy and Kaprizov. They need more from Gus. They need their Captain back. 

    Yeah it's a rough stretch but I don't think the Wild are screwed or Guerin is a loser. These are the worst cap years and the Wild's PP is the real problem. On the GM subject, he's not getting fired anytime soon. Might as well focus complaints on injuries and horseshit PP. This team was good last season. If Spurge returns and Gus, Boldy, and Kaprizov get going with any input from the PP,  the Wild will be a much better team. Did we think they'd be better than Vegas or Boston, no. They just need to make the playoffs.

    Better to deal with injuries now and sort out roster issues now. Could Hunt be a good NHL defenseman after 40 games? Maybe, but how will the Wild know? This whole two moves are blown out of proportion IMO. Everyone is sour cause the Wild are losing and it's Guerin's fault because Fiala left and MN signs placeholders. I thought that's what we thought was gonna happen?

    Edited by Protec
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    On 11/9/2023 at 2:42 PM, M_Nels said:

    Since Billy's been GM the 1st rounders have been: Boldy, Rossi, Wall, Ohgren & Stramel. That doesn't include all the later round picks for who else we have in the pipeline. Wall is the exception since he's a goalie but you can't argue these other picks are guys that "play in their image". 

    Too nearsighted to call for Billy's head and call him a bust of a GM for bringing in 1yr rentals. Got some exciting prospects in the system that aren't in the mold of Maroon, Reaves, BOGO etc. NOW that being said you can make an argument for Dean and his ability for development/utilization of these guys. IMO you can't lump Billy & Dean together in this aspect. Will Dean still be here when the younger guys start to come up? We can hope not but 1yr rentals in cap hell don't define your GM and his draft picks. 

     

    Boldy was drafted by Falton and not BG. Rossi is ok but nothing exceptional. He actually is FIala replacement in the Guerin view but he is not even close. Everyone else (even Walstad) are unproven. So nothing makes any sense 

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    7 hours ago, Lovehockey said:

    The only thing is I am absolutely sure that Addison is happy to be out. Wait for more young players not willing to play for MInnesota. 

    That's not really how it works. Go around the leauge and look at other teams and their prospects. The guys who make it to the NHL rather quickly are two kinds, high-end prospects for teams who are building or players who step up to NHL level and contribute right away. There's plenty of young players held up in "development" and do you think a GM really cares about giving everyone gold stars or putting the best team on the ice? Just sayin, I don't think other MN prospects are sour that Addison moved out. Spacek, Masters, Hunt, and Lambos are all hoping they'd get three years worth of NHL opportunity and see the example of what happens when the team asks you to do something and time runs out.

    Addison's 3-year experiment in MN where he was the worst, schmedium-size defenseman is history. He got NHL time three different seasons. He was a one-faceted player and never evolved in that length of time.

    The Wild have had a rough start but there's plenty of reasons. GM in the pros is not an easy job. The Wild have maintained a series of small gains from a management perspective and have been a good team after the buyouts. Are they at the top of the power rankings according to a bunch of writers, no. Does that mean anything after a dozen games, sure for Vegas and Boston but let's not pretend the Wild got the entry to the NHL Vegas had, or has had the prototypical 1C until this season like Boston.

    There's plenty not to like about this year's start but this organization isn't lost, or screwed. The sideways shift, and old placeholder players is a concern.

    I think Mojo sucks again but he's not the only reason the Wild have lost more than they've won this year. Multiple players have had crummy starts or been hurt. The guys who got extended aren't really the ones who are the problem. 

    Special teams haven't got the job done. No confidence or synergy has been built. Zero momentum. Lack of discipline. There's only one way out of this and it's to put your head down and work. Period. Nobody is gonna do it for you or bail you out. Blue collar, disciplined hockey is the baseline. Special teams execution and production is the next priority. Team defense. While the Wild aren't Vegas, they're better than this. They just need to put it ALL together.

     

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