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  • The Stakes Were Way Too High To Go Away From Gustavsson In Game 2


    Image courtesy of Jerome Miron-USA Today Sports
    Tony Abbott

    Making decisions with high stakes is hard. Analyzing decisions when you don't have skin in the game is much easier. It's important to keep these things in mind occasionally. 

    The NHL is a results-based league, one where millions of dollars, thousands of man hours worth of effort throughout the year, and jobs, are on the line. Everyone looks good when things go well. But for 15 of the 16 teams in the Stanley Cup Playoffs, it's going to end with some amount of media and fan scrutiny.

    Not all of it will be fair, either. Coaches and players make mistakes, of course, but so do the teams that win. There are also times when what seems like a mistake came from a decision where there was no right answer.

    The Minnesota Wild's goalie saga from last year's playoff is a good example. From Games 1 to 5, Marc-Andre Fleury was underwhelming against the St. Louis Blues. Many people still question why the Wild didn't go with Cam Talbot before Game 6. The answer? Talbot had a poor year despite a late surge and was weak in particular to the kind of offense St. Louis ran.

    Dean Evason's decision to start Fleury for Game 2 on Wednesday wasn't a similar no-win situation. It wasn't a remarkably difficult decision. Filip Gustavsson was right there, coming off a 3-2 Game 1 win over the Dallas Stars where he stopped 51 of 53 shots in double overtime. What coach isn't going to turn to them for Game 2?

    We found out last night. You can see how it might be clever. Dallas relies on Jake Oettinger as its clear No. 1 goalie. Stars coach Pete DeBoer is never in a million years going to turn to backup Scott Wedgewood. Maybe Oettinger would run down due to fatigue, and by keeping Gustavsson fresh, could there be a long-term advantage by going to a rotation?

    Way too clever, it turns out. It blew up like a pair of ACME rocket boots in Minnesota's face for Game 2, a 7-3 loss where Fleury only stopped 24 of 31 shots. The loss underlines how bizarre of a decision that was, of course. But even independent of the result, the move just did not make sense.

    Let's start here: No other coach would've made that decision in Evason's spot. How can we possibly know that? History.

    Since the 2004-05 lockout through the start of this year's playoffs, there were 59 playoff games that went to two or more overtimes but didn't end the series. That is, games in which coaches on both sides had goalies playing for a very long time, and they had to decide whether to sit or start them in the next game.

    How many of those winning coaches decided to turn away from the goalie that earned the decision? Just one. On April 15, 2015, Scott Darling came into the game in relief of Corey Crawford and stopped all 44 shots in a double overtime win in Game 1. Joel Quenneville returned to Crawford for Game 2.

    Fatigue wasn't the factor driving the decision. Darling only played 67 minutes, a pretty standard OT workload. It was track record. You can say it was unfair to Darling, but he only had 13 starts in his career, and Crawford was one of the best goalies in the league at the time. Also, Quenneville won his third Stanley Cup that year, so it's hard to question him on hockey tactics.

    Meanwhile, the Wild are still looking for their third playoff series win in two decades.

    Heck, in 57 of the 59 cases, the coaches decided to give the net to the losing goalies, despite any fatigue concerns. Both those cases came in the 2020 COVID bubble playoffs, which was admittedly weird, and both goalies struggled in those losses. You can get why those coaches changed horses, especially in a summer hockey game coming off a five-month layover.

    Now, every coach does it this way is not a very good reason to do something on its own. But what about when conventional wisdom and the data align against you? Because as Hockey Wilderness noted two weeks ago, the data was firmly against starting Fleury over Gustavsson.

    What stat do you want to use? All of them point towards Gustavsson. Save percentage? Gustavsson second in the NHL with a .931 for the year. Fleury was tied with Alex Stalock for 19th at .908.

    How about a stat that accounts for Minnesota playing good defense in front of them? Gustavsson finished seventh in the league in Goals Saved Above Expected (GSAx), between Andrei Vasilevskiy and Oettinger. Fleury was just barely in positive territory with 0.86 on the year, between Tristan Jarry and the aforementioned Talbot.

    In terms of who got them to the postseason in the first place, Gustavsson gave Minnesota roughly 11 points in the standings. Meanwhile, Fleury was worth about four, per Evolving Hockey's Goalie Goals Above Replacement model.

    Maybe Evason was just playing the matchups? That's not the case, either. Gustavsson was a stellar .935 goalie against playoff teams this season. Meanwhile, Fleury struggled big-time, putting up an abysmal .866 save percentage and was especially prone to the kind of gigantic blow-ups we saw in Game 2.

    Against the Stars, Fleury allowed eight goals on 77 shots in two regular season games this year (.896). Do we even need to tell you that Gustavsson stopped 62 of 66 shots (.939) in his two meetings with Dallas?

    Let's be honest, though, you don't even need all that information to make the decision to keep riding the "Gus Bus!" Fifty-one saves on 53 shots in Game 1 is also a pretty compelling argument for giving your best goalie the net in Game 2. 

    But they didn't, and the Wild paid for it.

    It's true Minnesota played a sloppier game than they did in Game 1. Fleury faced 10 shot attempts that had a 15% chance or greater of scoring. Gustavsson only faced five such chances on Monday, in significantly more minutes. Even considering that, though, Fleury didn't come close to rising to the occasion.

    He finished the night with a GSAx of -3.41. The Wild defense gave up 3.59 expected goals, which isn't good, but paired with three goals, all Fleury had to do was steal 60% of a goal to force overtime. 

    Would Gustavsson have done that? The answer is that we'll never know. However, we know that Gustavsson registered a GSAx of 0.60 or higher in 20 of his 37 starts. He stole 1.60 goals or more, enough to win the game outright, 11 times. Assuming that stays stable, we're talking about a 54% chance of forcing overtime and a 30% chance of winning without overtime, significantly higher odds than Fleury's season would indicate.

    And, of course, it bears mentioning that Gustavsson registered 2.1 GSAx in Game 1. Repeating that would've sent Minnesota home to the Xcel Energy Center up 2-0. Maybe the Wild played worse. But even with solid, unspectacular goaltending, that win was within grasp.

    Evason defended Fleury and his decision after the game. No coach is going to throw his goalie under the bus during a playoff series, but the way he defended the decision wasn't satisfying. "It's what we do, right?" Evason told the media. "We've done all year." 

    Craig Berube made adjustments in last year's playoffs, while Evason lagged in doing so. It cost them the series. Rigidly sticking to what worked in the regular season, ignoring the context of being able to hide Fleury against weaker non-playoff teams, showed he's still reluctant to adapt his ways for the playoffs.

    Worse yet, it punted on maximizing his potential to step on Dallas' throats and take two games from them at American Airlines Center. You could say that Minnesota was playing with house money, as P.K. Subban suggested in the ESPN studio show during the second intermission. After all, they won Game 1 on the road, meaning all they have to do to close out the series is win their home games.

    If Evason believed it, he failed to learn another lesson from last year. There is no house money in the playoffs. You have one resource in a series that matters: Four losses. Spend them all, and you're out. You can't pencil in Ws for your home games and plan your series around that, you need to go for the kill.

    The Wild failed to do this last year against the Blues. They dropped a chance to run up a 3-1 series lead against a team with practically two NHL defensemen. Instead, they went home for Game 5 with a tied series and home ice advantage. They lost in six games.

    Minnesota won not one, but two games on the road against the Vegas Golden Knights, including a Game 1 overtime win. But that advantage vanished because those home games weren't in the bag, and they lost in seven.

    The Wild haven't won a postseason series in eight years, despite seven bites at the apple. It's the wrong time to get cute. It's no time to go completely against coaching consensus, data, and logic. Gustavsson has been the biggest difference-maker for Minnesota all year. Until he proves otherwise, letting him sit on the bench is every bit as silly as stapling Kirill Kaprizov there.

    The Wild can't afford to roll with Fleury again, and it's very possible that they couldn't even afford to do it this once. We'll know by the end of the series.

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    All I can say for Wild fans harping on the decision for MAF to start, you’re not wrong to be against that decisions with all your pain and frustration. 

    There, there.

    Keep in mind the Wild will be the inferior team as the playoffs go on. I wouldn’t cry doom and gloom after two games in the playoffs lol. It was certainly a bad loss. Let’s see how they respond in G3 at home.

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    Let’s just say MAF is a .900 goalie. That’s cause he has some games around .950 and some around .850 or worse. Overall he’s still a hall of famer and he’s had some outstanding games in MN. Are the coaches morons and is Fleury toast? Nah. It’s just one shitty game where the Wild gave up uncontested breakaways from the blueline in,  a back-door tappy, and two deflecteros which is not characteristic for the Wild. 
     

    Five-game series now. That’s all.

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    Agree.  Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

    I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

    Its not the loss that is so disastrous.  It’s how they lost.  They got their asses kicked.  Both on the scoreboard and physically.

    If you lose that game, but it’s a tight one, or you wear them down physically, Dallas is still thinking in the back of their mind how they gave up home ice, have to go to St. Paul, etc.  There is no question in anyones mind after that, on either side, that Dallas is the by far the better team here.  

    It’s possible the same thing happens if Guatavsson starts.  Maybe even probable.  But, I think what they did last night propels Dallas to a fairly easy series win.  It won’t go beyond 6.  We took what hope and momentum from lucking into a game 1 win and threw it back at them like a hot potato.  Frankly, a pretty gutless performance all around.

    The real dagger is Kaprisov appears to have been taken out of the series by the Suter cross check.  He was bad last night.  -2 with 12 penalty minutes and 2 shots.

    I knew this team probably wasn’t going to make it far.  But, last night was just absolutely sickening and embarrassing.

     

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    Many people still question why the Wild didn't go with Cam Talbot before Game 6. The answer? Talbot had a poor year despite a late surge and was weak in particular to the kind of offense St. Louis ran.

    Talbot had a poor stretch in the middle of the year when he had been injured and was working his way back, which also coincided with injuries to the Wild defense and created a horrible situation for goalie success.

    Prior to his injury, Talbot was playing at a very high level, and he had started to return to that level prior to Fleury joining the Wild. Once Fleury was on the team, Talbot returned to playing at a very high level, and was clearly playing better than Fleury. Fleury also had plenty of bad games against good teams last season, and Talbot should have been in goal for game #1.

    Fleury played about equal this season to what he did last year with the Wild, so it's hard to believe anyone would think both that Fleury deserved to start the playoffs last year AND that he didn't deserve any starts in this playoffs.

    If Gustavsson started and they lost 5-3, and returned home 1-1, who do you start then?

    Dallas is the better team right now, partly because they are the healthier team. The Wild were almost certainly going to lose game 2 with either goalie in the net(that's just how playoffs tend to go with even teams), but now they'll go back home with a still confident #1 goalie and a team highly motivated to get back in the win column.

    Frankly, Dallas was extremely close to putting up 5 goals in game 1, between Wild defensemen swiping away shot attempts at the open sides of half-open goals and the pipes hit--Gus was both lucky and good.

    I believe Gustavsson is the significantly better goalie AND that Fleury playing game 2 was in the best interest of the long-term chances in the playoffs for the Wild.

    The Wild need their top 2 centers and their best scorer to heal up, and if at least 2 of those guys don't get close to healthy, Dallas is simply a better team. If the Wild were clearly the better team, they would have started this series at home.

    Gus should be fresh and ready for the home games, where the Wild should have a better chance at winning games. If the Wild win all of their home games...series won!

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    34 minutes ago, Beast said:

    Agree.  Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

    I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

    Its not the loss that is so disastrous.  It’s how they lost.  They got their asses kicked.  Both on the scoreboard and physically.

    If you lose that game, but it’s a tight one, or you wear them down physically, Dallas is still thinking in the back of their mind how they gave up home ice, have to go to St. Paul, etc.  There is no question in anyones mind after that, on either side, that Dallas is the by far the better team here.  

    It’s possible the same thing happens if Guatavsson starts.  Maybe even probable.  But, I think what they did last night propels Dallas to a fairly easy series win.  It won’t go beyond 6.  We took what hope and momentum from lucking into a game 1 win and threw it back at them like a hot potato.  Frankly, a pretty gutless performance all around.

    The real dagger is Kaprisov appears to have been taken out of the series by the Suter cross check.  He was bad last night.  -2 with 12 penalty minutes and 2 shots.

    I knew this team probably wasn’t going to make it far.  But, last night was just absolutely sickening and embarrassing.

     

    I don't disagree with some of what you said but I vehemently disagree with other parts. Fleury is to blame for the Benn goal and the poor save selection on Hintz breakaway goal where he went for the poke check instead of being patient. Other than that, completely boneheaded plays where possession was just handed to Dallas or atrocious defensive coverage were to blame. But to say Fleury hasn't been good for a while is abjectly false. He had a .928 SV% in March. He's been above a .900 for most of the season. Does he have the occasional stinker? Yes. So does every single goalie in this league (see Ullmark last night).  The Wild did get their asses handed to them in Game 2. You're correct. It was their soft play, boneheaded mistakes, and poor defensive coverage that led to the L. 

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    Also, forgot to add: his contract is a 35+ contract. You'd still have to pay 2/3 of it if you bought it out, adding $1,166,667 to the already sky high buyout cap hits. No way GMBG does that. Fleury also has a full no move clause. Unless you're trading him to Pittsburgh or Montreal, I doubt he waives it. 

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    I do not understand Evason's logic: "It's what we've done all season." If that's the logic behind this, we need a new coach. However, I do, wholeheartedly agree with the decision to start MAF in the game.  I suggested this prior to game 1, to tell both goalies that Goose2 has the net for game 1 and MAF has it for game 2.  Going to double OT in game 1 even made the decision easier.

    Out of all of Tony's stats, did he mention the one where the teams had a HOF caliber goalie as the backup?  No. Game 1 was already in the win column.  We'd come away with our goal.  We'd lost Hartsy for game 2, we probably were resting Ek since we won game 1. 2 extra days to heal are probably huge with a broken leg. 

    Our guys in front of Fleury never did their job. Cammie's right about the poke check, and he committed to it too early. The Dallas speed appeared to be too much for our D. I question if Merrill can even keep up. Giving up those breakaways, though, that wasn't on Fleury.

    If I were in Evason's shoes, I would want Fleury to see the arena, get the sight lines, get the feel, everything's different in the playoffs. Oettinger wasn't particularly good in this game, goalies lose a tremendous amount of fluid and to go that long in game 1, it would take an extra day.  We had the luxury of winning game 1, nobody was able to match the Dallas desperation in game 2. Oettinger will still feel the affects of these 2 games, Gustavsson will not.  If he's hot and does well in game 3, I'd consider a game 4 start.  If it goes deep into OT again, I'd start Fleury game 4.  We've got the depth, but for it to be depth, you've got to use it.  

    To me, Faber played well and Brodin played pretty well, that was it for the defenders.  The forwards needed far more physical punishing, I thought Duhaime played well, and Dewar should have been elevated to another line.  Boldy at C wasn't a good move, but we likely had little choice.  

    One thing that was nice was that Kaprizov didn't score.  Why? Because all year, he has been beastly in games he didn't score in the following game.  We didn't waste one of his goals.  No idea where Zuccarello is? 

    We just need to tighten up everything defensively in our building.  Gus is better there too.  Getting the 1st goal will be important.  Running their D will also be important. I heard on the radio today that Pavelski won't be traveling with them to St. Paul.  Now we need to make life tough on Seguin. And, we left Benn alone, that must be rectified.

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    Deano in a nutshell; good in reg season, hopeless in playoffs. Not sure if this was BG's decision or Dean's but it went against all logic and stats. Seems like we are playing checkers while everyone else is playing chess. 

    We should be putting out our best guys we can every single game, that isn't a hard concept. 

    The fact we had to watch our FO go against the conventional playoff wisdom again is astounding. Don't bother listening to every coach that has ever won a cup, or recent history, just put in Fleury because he is a great locker room guy.

    If BG/DE don't win this series I think they soundly have proven they are not going to be the ones to get us there. I know we are under cap, etc. This was a opportunity dropped on our part and a momentum shift that will make the next game even harder. DE is proving that he wasn't cut out for playoffs or crucial adjustments, year after year.

    To those saying Gus needed the rest, that is not how anyone looks at playoffs. You have a hot goaltender who is also statistically the second best in the league, you play him. Nuts to whatever deluded idea of the playoffs you had.

    "This is the way we do things." is an awful excuse. We used to encourage smoking in pregnant women and use asbestos in most of our buildings. Doing things the same way because that is the way we do things is the worst cop out ever.

    I'm not putting the loss all on Fleury but it was a major factor. I don't even blame Fleury for his bad play, I blame our front office. Once again, out coached and shot ourselves in the foot, story of Dean's career.

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    I completely disagree. The stakes were 'too high'?? That's gotta be a 4/20 pun 'cause we were up 1-0! 

    The whole point pre-series was to make sure we won one on the road to get back home-ice advantage. And we did that. When else is Dean supposed to try something like this? You want the 7-3 game to happen when its 2-2? We're ahead of the game already. 

    I understand it sucks we lost, especially given that it wasn't a close game, but the response to the MAF decision is over the top reactionary imo. This guy is a HoFer. He's not Kaapo Kahkonen or Alex Stalock. If he had a better game, like game 2 and 3 of the STL series, then Evason isn't getting ripped nearly so badly. 

    Its not like Gustavsson was superhuman in game 1. He allowed 2 PPGs just 9 seconds into two penalties. On the first shot he faced, each time. And neither of them were difficult saves. He bounced back, sure, but it isn't as if he didn't give up a lead very quickly/easily.

    MAF sure never even got the chance to maintain a lead, thanks to some poor play ahead of him in addition to his own off-night. 

     

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    39 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

    I do not understand Evason's logic: "It's what we've done all season." If that's the logic behind this, we need a new coach. However, I do, wholeheartedly agree with the decision to start MAF in the game.  I suggested this prior to game 1, to tell both goalies that Goose2 has the net for game 1 and MAF has it for game 2.  Going to double OT in game 1 even made the decision easier.

    Our guys in front of Fleury never did their job. Cammie's right about the poke check, and he committed to it too early. The Dallas speed appeared to be too much for our D. I question if Merrill can even keep up. Giving up those breakaways, though, that wasn't on Fleury.

     

    I think that's entirely fair logic. Granted this isn't the regular season, but it isn't like MAF is some scrub. We're up 1-0 on the road, we've got the advantage we wanted, why not get a little risky with the second game, knowing that teams generally even up the series after a loss in game 1? At worst you go home in a best-of-5 with home-ice and at best you go home 2-0. 

    MAF and Gus play the position completely opposite. Making Dallas have to change their gameplan for a different goalie in game 2 is not a terrible idea in addition to getting your soon-to-be workhorse a little extra rest at this point of the season.

    The real issue, imo, is that it seemed to be all Evason did to adjust from game 1 to game 2, besides being forced to shuffle the lineup. Dallas was all over us from the start and we never really recovered. That played a much bigger role than swapping to MAF. 

    Unless Gus completely falls apart in one of these losses, he probably has the net from this point on though. 

     

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    1 hour ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    Talbot had a poor stretch in the middle of the year when he had been injured and was working his way back, which also coincided with injuries to the Wild defense and created a horrible situation for goalie success.

    Prior to his injury, Talbot was playing at a very high level, and he had started to return to that level prior to Fleury joining the Wild. Once Fleury was on the team, Talbot returned to playing at a very high level, and was clearly playing better than Fleury. Fleury also had plenty of bad games against good teams last season, and Talbot should have been in goal for game #1.

    Except when he played the St. Louis Blues, even post-TDL. THAT is why he wasn't the game 1 starter. Plain and simple. They played the matchup, which was the right thing to do even if it didn't work in the end. 

     

    The rest of it is spot-on. We got home-ice advantage back, which was all we really wanted out of the first 2 games of this series. Sucks that we lost, and badly at that, but in the words of a wise sage: that's the way she goes, boys! 

     

     trailer park boys sparkle GIF

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    Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

    I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

    So you're in the "Fleury is toast" camp. Got it.😁

    Are we saying that Gustaffsson would've gone 3 for 3 stopping breakaways and the Benn-snipe, Hintz tap-in, etc.??? I mean it wasn't a Suter-muffin, it was a Benn-snipe...

    Did anyone think the Wild would sweep Dallas? DeBoer is a pretty good coach. Better than Dean? Probably, he's got a beefier resume. If you're a GMBG/Fleury hater you should be happy he looked bad cause that justifies not going to him again as long as Gustaffssonn is hot. Right???

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    2 hours ago, Protec said:

    Let’s just say MAF is a .900 goalie. That’s cause he has some games around .950 and some around .850 or worse. Overall he’s still a hall of famer and he’s had some outstanding games in MN. Are the coaches morons and is Fleury toast? Nah. It’s just one shitty game where the Wild gave up uncontested breakaways from the blueline in,  a back-door tappy, and two deflecteros which is not characteristic for the Wild. 
     

    Five-game series now. That’s all.

    And we now have the home ice advantage. I was hoping for a Gus Bus start, but who knows how that would have turned out. It sure would be nice being up 2-0 though.

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    Starting Fleury was the wrong call, not only because Gus has been a better goalie all season in every measurable category, but also because he was coming off a hot game 1 performance.

    Did the Wild play a sloppier game last night? Absolutely. Did Fleury face some high danger scoring chances? Definitely. Did he stop any of them? No, no really. He even let in some incredibly embarrassing goals like the five hole power play goal that most college goalies would have easily stopped. He also played all three of the break away goalies incredibly poorly. If it wasn’t for our defensemen sweeping away his bad rebounds and blocking shots when he was out of position the game could have easily been 10 or 12 to 3.

    The Wild dug themselves a hole early in the game, and when they started to dig themselves out of it, Fleury let them down letting in a soft goal. That took the energy out of the team. He did this multiple times against St. Louis last year. I know he is a HOF goaltender, I know he is a great guy, but he just doesn’t have it anymore.

    TL:DR The Wild were probably going to lose this game either way. They had a chance to win it with Gus in the net, they did not with Fleury.

     

     

     

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    ^^^

    Hindsight-factor is multiplied after a loss. We can agree who all played a bad game cause we watched it happen together. To get Gusstafvson back between the pipes with his positive momentum isn't a bad thing. If the Wild got smoked game two and Fleury is on the bench then what goalie-mojo do you have for game three?

    I mean there's so many ways to look at it? You're totally right that when the Wild got going a little bit, Dallas scored. Fleury knows what the team needs and he didn't deliver. He's better than that and I'm sure he's frustrated knowing it was a bad game for him.

    Now the Wild should be poised to come back stronger.

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    1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Except when he played the St. Louis Blues

    Fleury gave up 5 goals in regulation and 4 goals in regulation the last 2 times he faced the Blues, which were in February before he joined the Wild.

    Talbot gave up 3 goals and 5 goals in regulation(excluding the 3 on 3 hockey that would not happen in the playoffs) the last 2 time he faced the Blues.

    The Wild should have let Fleury face the Blues in one of those games in the regular season, then they'd have had a more informed opinion for their decision. Neither of them were good against a healthy Blues roster, but it sure seemed like Talbot had earned the start through superior play down the stretch.


    In Fleury's last 7 games before a meaningless finale(primarily against Colorado's AHL affiliate), Fleury had been giving up over 3.5 goals per game. In Talbot's last 7 meaningful games, which does include all goals against in both of those St. Louis losses(both in OT), he had a goals against average of 2.43.

    Fleury got rewarded for playing significantly worse down the stretch last season. I fully expected him to play in the playoffs at some point, just not in game 1. Same with this season.

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    1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    They played the matchup, which was the right thing to do even if it didn't work in the end. 

    I forgot to mention that Talbot also had the better career save percentage in the playoffs, but a significant margin. Fleury played for a lot of good teams, and found success on those superior teams, particularly closer to his prime. Talbot was much closer to his prime, and had been showing superior results.

    All in all, it's not that important because the Wild were unlikely to topple Colorado had they conquered the Blues, and the decision that didn't sit right in Talbot's world did lead to bringing in Gus.

    I can understand the frustration on the part of Talbot and those close to him as there was very little in recent history to suggest that Talbot was not the best option for the team going into game 1 last season, and the 0-4 result seemed to show that the team felt that way too. He deserved game 1 and if it didn't work, they could ride with the other guy from there forward.

    I'm not sure Fleury "deserved" game 2 this year, but it seemed inevitable that they would play him at some point, and now that he's had his shot, they can ride the other guy going forward, hopefully to 3 home victories so that Wild fans can thoroughly enjoy this series.

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    I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
     

    Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

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    8 hours ago, Jon said:

    I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
     

    Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

    As a Minnesotan who lived in Washington state for 15 years, I’m really hoping the Kraken take the Avs out and do something this year (even if it is just losing to us). Fun to see a new team doing so well in their second season.

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    One point that hasn't really been discussed about Fleury: Locking down the puck.  

    Last season, against the Blues, one criticism of Fleury is his propensity to give up rebounds and not lock it down.  Specifically, on the road, a goalie needs to be able to do this, even a HOF goalie.  We once again saw that this is not Fleury's style. I still believe it was a good move to put him in net. Maybe the coaches can talk to him about locking it down as an emphasis.

    It seems like Goose2 is far better at doing this, deadening the puck and freezing it.  You'd expect that from a "calm" goalie.  This contrast in styles may be what goes further than anything as the series goes on.  I'm happy Goose2 should get game 3.  

    Hopefully the team can regroup too, they've got plenty of film to make corrections.

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    10 hours ago, Jon said:

    I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
     

    Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

    Watching this fan base is fascinating and scientists may look at it in the future to study human behavior.

    Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

    Look at the last two seasons and the expectations going in. fringe playoff team. Deano leads them to the best franchise record ever and follows it up with 100 + points, yet he's a bum. It's as entertaining as it is frustrating.

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    1 minute ago, Willy the poor boy said:

    Watching this fan base is fascinating and scientists may look at it in the future to study human behavior.

    Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

    Look at the last two seasons and the expectations going in. fringe playoff team. Deano leads them to the best franchise record ever and follows it up with 100 + points, yet he's a bum. It's as entertaining as it is frustrating.

    This is a great take.  Fandom is fickle in nature. The flip side to the Hartman/Dumba example is Rossi.  Holding on to a prospects promise and denying the reality in front of our face because it hurts to have to accept that Brackett clanged this one off the upright

    #hottakegameday

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    3 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

    Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

    I wasn't one of the Dumba detractors, I've advocated for years he's better than we think.  I still think he reinvented himself the 2nd half of the season, mainly when Brodin went out. As for Hartsy, he's on a very valuable contract, but along with Dumba, something is wrong with that right shoulder and it has limited his sandpaper taking him up to a grade 200.  

    It will be interesting after the season to see if both these guys go under the knife again.  And Freddy's still a bargain at $2.1m!

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    2 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

    One point that hasn't really been discussed about Fleury: Locking down the puck.  

    Last season, against the Blues, one criticism of Fleury is his propensity to give up rebounds and not lock it down.  Specifically, on the road, a goalie needs to be able to do this, even a HOF goalie.  We once again saw that this is not Fleury's style. I still believe it was a good move to put him in net. Maybe the coaches can talk to him about locking it down as an emphasis.

    It seems like Goose2 is far better at doing this, deadening the puck and freezing it.  You'd expect that from a "calm" goalie.  This contrast in styles may be what goes further than anything as the series goes on.  I'm happy Goose2 should get game 3.  

    Hopefully the team can regroup too, they've got plenty of film to make corrections.

    Fleury plays an old school style. Even his gear is old school. As someone who has played goalie since about 2002, I appreciate his game. I also realize that Gus' style is how goalies in the NHL have to play nowadays to really have success. Goalies now are focused on more controlled movement and not having "happy feet". Fleury has adapted over the years, don't get me wrong. But fighting the instinct you've grown up with is hard. Goaltending is very much muscle memory and reactions. Fleury was and always will be a decent hybrid between the straight up butterfly blocking style and the slightly chaotic stand up style. He leans more butterfly, clearly, and has relied on his excellent reactions and quick feet his entire career. Obviously that has slowed down as he'd gotten into his later 30s. I still think he is a great goalie, he might just not be consistent starter material anymore.

    The Penguins and Knights had great success with Fleury as their goalie and they adapted defensively to him and the styles of his backups. Early in his career, I feel like the Penguins cornered the market on French-Canadian goalies (Caron, Aubin, Thibault, Sabourin, Fleury) but they all played differently. Pens were atrocious but it wasn't their goaltending that was the problem. Then like Conklin, Johnson, Vokoun, Zatkoff, and Greiss came in and the Pens found success with both goalies and their differing styles (minus some playoff meltdowns which again, not all on goaltending). Then came Murray and Jarry who play very Carey Price-like but still, Pens had success with all their goalies. In Vegas, he was playing with kids half his age with varying styles until they brought Lehner in. And speaking of, Lehner is a unicorn in this league (when he was healthy). Vegas found success with the both of them. The excuse that the Wild can't adapt to the different styles of both their goalies doesn't fly for me. They are NHL players/coaches and should be smart enough to figure it out. Sure, Fleury could control some rebounds better. But also, it shouldn't be rocket science for his team to help him out a bit more. 

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    19 minutes ago, CammieBuckeye29 said:

    Sure, Fleury could control some rebounds better. But also, it shouldn't be rocket science for his team to help him out a bit more. 

    The team definitely could have helped him out more Wednesday night, that's for sure. That said, generally they DO help him out a lot more, but you can only clear out so many slot rebounds before the opposing team gets to one. Fleury's rebound control, and puck control in general is AWFUL.

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