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  • How Productive Can A Healthy Marcus Foligno Be?


    Image courtesy of © Jerome Miron - USA TODAY Sports
    Justin Hein

    Marcus Foligno is two things: A larger than life personality and a fighter. For most role players in the sport, one is enough. The combination of both in one man is not unique to Foligno, but it’s also invaluable in the locker room and on the ice. 

    Dishing out body checks at car-crash speeds and bare-knuckle boxing for 82 games a year takes a heavy toll on a man’s body, especially when stacked on top of the workouts and games of an every-night NHL forward. Foligno has carved out a major role by doing what few players can or will do on a nightly basis. Years into what has undeniably been a successful NHL career, it only gets harder to maintain a high level of play. That will be Foligno’s challenge this season. 

    32-year-old hockey players live in a twilight zone. They’re past their prime, but they can lean on their experience. It’s also worth noting that there’s a reason that Foligno is still in the league at age 32. He’s been a pillar of Minnesota’s lineup. 

    Older players typically lose athleticism as they age, but their skills improve. Think of late-career Mikko Koivu. He wasn’t as fast as he had been in his youth, but his faceoffs, passing, and vision were as good as or better than ever. 

    To understand what Foligno brings to the table this season, it’s crucial to understand two aspects of aging: 

    1. How drastically do players decline in their early 30s?
    2. Why do players decline with age? 

    The first question varies widely on a case-by-case basis. However, that question has been studied statistically according to age curves. Someone who collects statistics on every player for several years can find the year-to-year change. Plot that against the age at which that change happened, and an age curve is generated. 

    You can use any statistic to generate an age curve, from simple counting stats (such as goals or points) to complex analytics. The Evolving Hockey team studied how WAR changes as players age in an old Hockey-Graphs.com post, and the results are somewhat encouraging for Foligno. Forwards decline entering their age-32 season, but gradually. The dropoff is nothing compared to a player’s mid-to-late 30’s.  

    FW + DEF AGE CURVES.JPG

    The chart above gives a rough estimate of how an average forward declines in all measurable areas of the game. It’s not very specific to player archetypes or even positions. The chart above combines the aging curve of a third-line center, Anze Kopitar, and Patrick Kane, even though they are all very different players. 

    For this reason, it’s best to focus on the aspects of Foligno’s game that make him a useful third-liner. Foligno’s superpowers are physicality and forechecking IQ. Traditional “defense” statistics such as hits, plus-minus, or blocked shots measure that poorly.

    Analytical measures of even-strength defensive impact have existed for over ten seasons. They are calculated based on shot location tracking. Every shot in the NHL is clocked by location, which can give a rough estimate of shot danger. Players that give up less shot danger are presumed to have a better defensive impact. Foligno’s defensive impact has been consistently excellent throughout his time in Minnesota. See the age curve for these statistics in the chart below. 

    FW + DEF AGE CURVES - EV DEF COMPONENT.JPG
    Forwards in their early 30s have a very friendly age curve in terms of their defensive ability. That makes intuitive sense, given how cerebral defense is in hockey. Keeping position and predicting one’s opponent is more of a mental task a physical one. 

    That’s very encouraging for Foligno because he brings his best on-ice impact with his defense. So, to answer the first question – how drastically do players decline in their early 30’s? – the best parts of Foligno’s game should age gracefully. 

    The flip side of this optimism is Foligno’s injuries. There’s no question that he’s incredibly tough, but playing through injuries last year certainly affected his play. His diminished point production from 2021-22 to 2022-23 was expected, but his defensive impact was just average. Note the difference between the left (2022-23) and right (‘19-20, ‘20-21, and ‘21-22). His defense drops from the 99th percentile to the 81st. 

    FOLIGNO 22-23 VS PAST 3 SZNS.JPG
    Remember that defensive impacts are not closely related to age, so that shouldn’t be the reason for such a drop. Injuries naturally exacerbate dropoffs in athleticism. Last February, Foligno popped up on the injury report with a knee injury, then two more lower-body injuries in March. The NHL has a reputation for injury reports that contain limited clarity. Given Foligno’s extreme durability, these were probably serious enough to affect his play, if they were serious enough to be reported at all. 

    Entering camp, Dean Evason confirmed to The Athletic that Foligno is fully healthy. Hopefully, this means that he can return to his excellent form. When healthy, the Moose’s analytical impact has been close to Joel Eriksson Ek and Jared Spurgeon. He probably brings even more than they do from an intangible perspective. 

    However, analytical models are projecting a tangible drop in play this year. Dom Luszczyszyn’s model projects Foligno to bring only $2.8 million of on-ice value, compared to Eriksson Ek at $8.7 million and Spurgeon at $7.9 million. 

    DOM'S PROJECTIONS VS. CONTRACT VALUE 23-24.JPG
    One reason for this is that Luszczyszyn’s model is weighted heavily on the most recent season and then applies an aging curve. The model is largely blind to Foligno’s health. It’s possible that the model thinks he’s falling off the age cliff when he really just had a poor season due to injury. In that case, Foligno would be primed for another dominant defensive season. 

    On the other hand, injuries often drive the relationship between aging athletes and declining play. If Foligno fails to return to his defensive form while healthy, it could be a sign that he’s nearing the end of his NHL career. The front office would be faced with some hard truths in that reality. 
    That’s why health is such a key factor in Foligno’s 2023-24 season. It’s a tale of two players. When Foligno is fighting through injury, he’s a role-playing third-liner. At full health, he’s a unicorn of a defensive forward and a top-5 player on the roster. 

    Professional sports have a way of giving everything to the men who play the game and taking everything from them in the same breath. Marcus Foligno embodies all the brutality of the sport of hockey. It’s woven into the fabric of his play and the way his voice bellows across the ice. He gives his whole body to the sport. First, it was a way for him to get on the ice. Now, it’s the only way he knows how to stay on the ice. 

    Foligno has always been a fighter, but now he’s in a battle against Father Time. If he can last a few more rounds, the Wild have a special player in their midst. 

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    35 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Memo to all the IBGIT blind loyalty crowd - Does this contract make you trust BG more or less?

    Wow, that's a lot of money for a guy who's aging. 4 x $4m going to age 36 + an NTC. Yikes!

    I'm not in the IBGIT crowd, but I believe only 1 of those guys could be resigned so as not to block the young guys. However, Foligno, to me is the hardest in the organization to replace. We just don't have a guy who brings what he does, and Stramel is probably at least 4 years off to being able to do it. 

    I think we will look back on today when it's all said and done and realize Shooter made a mistake resigning all these guys.

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    41 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Memo to all the IBGIT blind loyalty crowd - Does this contract make you trust BG more or less?

    Wouldn’t say I was blindly loyal but I did have faith. After these last 2 signings it’s definitely less for me.

    This deal is an absolute head scratcher in both term and money. Again, much like Zucc would’ve preferred a shorter deal 2yrs max. Love Moose but making this money he HAS to produce on the ice and not just be a good character guy. Gotta find a way to stay healthy too. Definitely think this plugs up a spot for a younger guy down the road in a year or 2. 

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    Now, back to the article. I believe a healthy Foligno will bounce back, especially defensively. Those core injuries can really affect performance, and I think he was fighting through it.

    We do have an example of how the Foligno body works, brother Nick. Age 32 season, he started falling off a cliff. In Boston he looked old and slow. But, he measures 6' 208, a little shorter than Marcus. 

    Father Mike was 6'2" 194 and he started falling off the age cliff at 30. For him, both injuries and production were the culprits, but, he was a scorer. 

    Marcus is larger and has a frame that can take more pounding as well as dish it out. Will the injuries start to catch up with him? I am a believer in bloodlines, and was not happy with what I uncovered. I'm wondering if Shooter should have taken a quick peak at these stats too.

    In fairness to Marcus, I believe he was more of a late bloomer. His impact doesn't start until he's 23-24 years old. He's in a real good situation right now. We shall soon find out if he can stay healthy. If his body starts to break down like the rest of his family, thank goodness he can get replaced with an ELC guy! 

    This may be the year we start using LTIR regularly with injuries. Is Hartsy next to resign?

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    1 hour ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Memo to all the IBGIT blind loyalty crowd - Does this contract make you trust BG more or less?

    I'm not overly joyous on this, but one move does not move the meter for me one way or the other. He's accomplished more since 2017 than all of out GMs together

     So to answer your question.....non factor  " IBGIT"..If we held DE to this standard he'd be cooked already

     

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    Guerin lauded Friday morning how quickly the Zuccarello deal came together. Late Friday afternoon, Guerin said Foligno’s was “even quicker.” 

    I'd jump on a $4Mx4 too as it was obviously $2M/yr more than I deserved! :classic_wacko:

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    12 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:
    12 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

    I'd jump on a $4Mx4 too as it was obviously $2M/yr more than I deserved! :classic_wacko:

     

     

    12 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

     

    That's exactly why it 'came together' so quickly. It would be hard to imagine either Zucc or MF were expecting that kind of money would come so easily.

    Now what happens to the guy (Hartzy) I thought they should be prioritizing this offseason. Does he get lowballed again? 

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    26 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

     

    That's exactly why it 'came together' so quickly. It would be hard to imagine either Zucc or MF were expecting that kind of money would come so easily.

    Now what happens to the guy (Hartzy) I thought they should be prioritizing this offseason. Does he get lowballed again? 

    $3M 3yrs is fair

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    What a joke to give a raise and term to a 32 yr old who made a fool of himself and the organization in the playoffs. He is a good player but not for 4 mil + 4yr . I like moose but that foolishness in his playoff performance lost my respect. They gave up and quit in the playoffs. Until the coach and players prove they have some fight in them for a cup , there shouldn’t be extensions for vets . See how they do this season 
        These signings and Freddy’s tell me this team is not going to win a playoff round for years. A perpetual rebuild for another 23 years . We don’t have a # 1 center. The one we drafted and were told by Judd was the most nhl ready player in draft. Still hasn’t made nhl but his classmates are and contributing . We have no money to go get a center because we have rewarded complacency and friendship over results . The coach can’t make adjustments or win a playoff round at any level. His only schtick is to have freddy do it. . We had the worst power play and we reward that coach with ahl head coach.  Our captain got manhandled in the playoffs and he’s on a long contract at 7 mil. So it’s just more of the same chuck fletcher kinda gm stuff . I bet Chicago wins a round before we do.. 

       I’ve been a fan from day one but I’m getting sick of the Minnesota wild country club for retiring good ole boys and gm friends . Get some real hockey players so we can see what kappy can really do! Quit grifting off kappy jerseys and get him some help. 

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    5 minutes ago, Dean said:

    What a joke to give a raise and term to a 32 yr old who made a fool of himself and the organization in the playoffs. He is a good player but not for 4 mil + 4yr . I like moose but that foolishness in his playoff performance lost my respect. They gave up and quit in the playoffs. Until the coach and players prove they have some fight in them for a cup , there shouldn’t be extensions for vets . See how they do this season 
        These signings and Freddy’s tell me this team is not going to win a playoff round for years. A perpetual rebuild for another 23 years . We don’t have a # 1 center. The one we drafted and were told by Judd was the most nhl ready player in draft. Still hasn’t made nhl but his classmates are and contributing . We have no money to go get a center because we have rewarded complacency and friendship over results . The coach can’t make adjustments or win a playoff round at any level. His only schtick is to have freddy do it. . We had the worst power play and we reward that coach with ahl head coach.  Our captain got manhandled in the playoffs and he’s on a long contract at 7 mil. So it’s just more of the same chuck fletcher kinda gm stuff . I bet Chicago wins a round before we do.. 

       I’ve been a fan from day one but I’m getting sick of the Minnesota wild country club for retiring good ole boys and gm friends . Get some real hockey players so we can see what kappy can really do! Quit grifting off kappy jerseys and get him some help. 

    I recommend you sleep on it with us all.....it will all be better in the morning...

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    Just now, Willy the poor boy said:

    Bedard's no joke, that guys gonna be elite for years.

    Dean needs to become a Hawks fan, he's sounds in dire straits.

    I look at this way...I followed the Vikequeens for 50 years before I gave up NFL football  4 years ago so the Wild situation is a piece of cake on the hopes/failures/destroyed fanbase scale! 

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    4 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

    I joked $4M x 5 as he's 28 years old....who knows at this point

    That's just it, does he get insulted and say screw you guys. I just don't think BG will make an offer like that to him and I can see him walking. The one guy he should have gotten signed out of all of them to date, IMO.

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    3 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

    Dean needs to become a Hawks fan, he's sounds in dire straits.

    I look at this way...I followed the Vikequeens for 50 years before I gave up NFL football  4 years ago so the Wild situation is a piece of cake on the hopes/failures/destroyed fanbase scale! 

    Ya, I'm not really to bent out of shape about the signings. I have to believe they know what they're doing, but I've been saying things like that for 3 years now and they just keep surprising me.

    This is REALLY a football state first and foremost. The Vikings rule, but if you're going to call yourself 'The State of Hockey' get the frick on with it. Bring a cup to the state.

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    1 minute ago, Willy the poor boy said:

    That's just it, does he get insulted and say screw you guys. I just don't think BG will make an offer like that to him and I can see him walking. The one guy he should have gotten signed out of all of them to date, IMO.

    Willy,  we need to WRITE THIS DOWN....:classic_biggrin: You and I actually agree on something!

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    I've never been a BG fan. His standing with me took a nosedive when Fiala and Soucy weren't prioritized. I believed at the time he should have protected Soucy instead of Dumba during the expansion draft. Dumba's contract then inevitably forced our hand in trading Fiala. Most people disagreed with me and said Fiala's PPG season was a fluke.

    Admittedly, that move may work out if Faber is capable of becoming a top pairing defenseman.

    The moves to extend Zuccarello and Foligno, arguably our worst players from a cost efficiency standpoint, is ridiculous. They are also known playoff zeroes.

    It's been clear to me this team is running on Guerin's emotions. He doesn't care about performance. He only cares about keeping players he likes.

    That's why Fiala and Talbot had to go.

    That's why we're stuck with Foligno, Zuccarello, Fleury, etc. now.

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    4 minutes ago, dlhouse said:

    I've never been a BG fan. His standing with me took a nosedive when Fiala and Soucy weren't prioritized. I believed at the time he should have protected Soucy instead of Dumba during the expansion draft. Dumba's contract then inevitably forced our hand in trading Fiala. Most people disagreed with me and said Fiala's PPG season was a fluke.

    Admittedly, that move may work out if Faber is capable of becoming a top pairing defenseman.

    The moves to extend Zuccarello and Foligno, arguably our worst players from a cost efficiency standpoint, is ridiculous. They are also known playoff zeroes.

    It's been clear to me this team is running on Guerin's emotions. He doesn't care about performance. He only cares about keeping players he likes.

    That's why Fiala and Talbot had to go.

    That's why we're stuck with Foligno, Zuccarello, Fleury, etc. now.

    Couldn't disagree more, all those veterans you mentioned were not going to get us a Cup. 

    We have a hell of a lot to show in prospects from what we had in average vets, other than Fiala and I take Öhgren/Yurov/Faber/Haight/Heidt/Wallstedt/Gustavsson and a signed KK/Boldy and a house cleaning of never beens to get where we need to be!

    If you think we could have done better with a cap hell for the next seven years, Good Luck!

    Flower maybe, but Zucci makes the Maserati (KK) roar and Moose is overpaid, but I'd take him to cover my 6 any day. 

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    7 hours ago, Willy the poor boy said:

    How productive? Hopefully 4 mill plus for each of the next 4 years.

    I might have been comfortable at $3.75M for 3 years, totaling $11.25M. Definitely surprised by the 4th year, at an average of $4M. Could have been ok at $3M/year for 4 years, but likely going to feel overpaid at the end of this deal.

    I suspect he'll have a really good season this year, but 3-4 years from now is a significant unknown for a player with his physical game.

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    7 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

    I believe a healthy Foligno will bounce back, especially defensively. Those core injuries can really affect performance, and I think he was fighting through it.

    Guerin's rationale:

    Quote

    “I know it’s probably coming, like, ‘He’s this old, it’s too many years, it’s too much money, it’s this and that.’ I get that,” Guerin said of the anticipated scrutiny. “But you know what? I like our team with Marcus Foligno way better than without him. And if we didn’t have him on our team, the first thing we’d be doing is trying to find a guy just like him. And there just aren’t many of those guys around. So I’m not really worried about the term because all those reasons.”

    I don't think the bolded part can be argued against much, but I certainly understand the scrutiny of the term and $4M per year. It does sound like he's in excellent shape coming into this camp and hopefully Maroon will handle more of the fighting for Foligno so he can focus more effort on scoring.

    I'm excited to see Rossi between Foligno and Gaudreau and hope those 3 can stay healthy, with each of them reaching 40+ points on the year.

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    On 9/29/2023 at 5:53 PM, mnfaninnc said:

    Foligno, to me is the hardest in the organization to replace. We just don't have a guy who brings what he does, and Stramel is probably at least 4 years off to being able to do it. 

    I think this must be the core of the reasoning behind the signing. BG and DE want some big guys on the team. Perhaps there are not any with his skillset that will be available. Still....4 years?

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