Article: The Zach Bogosian Trade Is Bill Guerin Doubling Down On Grit

[Tony Abbott]

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[MNCountryLife]

I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

[MrCheatachu]

2 minutes ago, MNCountryLife said:

I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

Russo's article pointed out:

• Bogosian lives in MN in the offseason
• Bogosian's brother works for the Wild in their 'Personal Performance' analytics group
• Bogosian is good friends with Maroon

Fake Bill Guerin Quote:

Quote

We bought out Parise and Suter to get rid of the 'country-club' atmosphere in this locker room, so I could bring in guys to create the ideal 'last stop before retirement' atmosphere.  You got a team that can win some games, but also an inviting place guys nearing 40 still want to play for.  We might not be winning games, but damnit this pays better than beer league does!

 

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

1 hour ago, MNCountryLife said:

I'm not sure this trade was about bringing in a bigger guy than Addison.  I have to wonder if BG could see the writing on the wall for Addison and that he wasn't going to get the opportunity to grow with the Wild so he shipped Addison off to the sharks where he could prosper.   More of a player friendly move to Addison than trying to make the Wild a better club.  Bogosian may end up sitting in the press box and play the 7th man in the lineup.  He also may start with limited minutes as a 3rd pairing.  Either way you don't have to feel bad about his playing time because his career is nearing the end.  If he does play you know exactly the type of player you have. It also is an expiring contract next year that he doesn't need to renew and opens a spot for his prospects.  While there isn't much upside for the Wild in this move there isn't much downside either.  But the upside for Addison sure seems to be there.

Not much downside? Going from someone who was a little more offense focused to inputting a dud enforcer is not going to shore up our hemorrhaging third pair. Addison wasn't a defensive stud but he was better than Merrill or Goligoski has been showing this year. He was passable in a sheltered role. 

As outlined above Bogosian isn't even capable in the most ideal of situations. So we sold a young defenseman with clear offensive upside who was a little lacking on the defensive side for a 5th and got back an utterly incapable bag of concrete for a seventh? That seems like nothing but a losing proposition.

What happened to f*cking winning? The club's growth and winning should be number one, not giving Addison a one way ticket to San Jose because he was a little sassy to Big Baby Guerin. Not giving away young players for nothing because they aren't the right size. Not shipping away prospects because they don't play the prototypical game you covet. 

I think more than anything, this proves that both Guerin and Evason are blind to any talent beyond Grit. They will never develop or value players that don't play in their image.  

The one thing this team sure didn't need was to get older, slower and take more penalties and we just hit on all three.  

[Dango]

Looks like our 2 best + -  D leaders in the post season are  Middleton and Bogosian  theyre actually in the + side  ,    Middleton is better than Bodosian even though Tampas been an Offensive juggernaut .   Maybe there is something to that grit   , Maroon is slower but he appears to be steady with the puck and usually gets a good pass off to the crease 

[M_Nels]

39 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

I think more than anything, this proves that both Guerin and Evason are blind to any talent beyond Grit. They will never develop or value players that don't play in their image.  

Since Billy's been GM the 1st rounders have been: Boldy, Rossi, Wall, Ohgren & Stramel. That doesn't include all the later round picks for who else we have in the pipeline. Wall is the exception since he's a goalie but you can't argue these other picks are guys that "play in their image". 

Too nearsighted to call for Billy's head and call him a bust of a GM for bringing in 1yr rentals. Got some exciting prospects in the system that aren't in the mold of Maroon, Reaves, BOGO etc. NOW that being said you can make an argument for Dean and his ability for development/utilization of these guys. IMO you can't lump Billy & Dean together in this aspect. Will Dean still be here when the younger guys start to come up? We can hope not but 1yr rentals in cap hell don't define your GM and his draft picks. 

 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

2 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

As outlined above Bogosian isn't even capable in the most ideal of situations. So we sold a young defenseman with clear offensive upside who was a little lacking on the defensive side for a 5th and got back an utterly incapable bag of concrete for a seventh? That seems like nothing but a losing proposition.

The best that Wild goalies have performed with Addison on the ice is an 88.2% save percentage, and their goalies performed well above that mark without him on the ice.

In Tampa the last 2 seasons, their goalies had better than a 92.0% save percentage both years when Bogo was on the ice, and their goalies all finished below that mark for those years.

If neither is playing penalty kill minutes, which one is truly worse for real high danger chances?

[Tony Abbott]

4 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

The best that Wild goalies have performed with Addison on the ice is an 88.2% save percentage, and their goalies performed well above that mark without him on the ice.

In Tampa the last 2 seasons, their goalies had better than a 92.0% save percentage both years when Bogo was on the ice, and their goalies all finished below that mark for those years.

If neither is playing penalty kill minutes, which one is truly worse for real high danger chances?

Andrei Vasilevskiy had a .920 save percentage when Bogosian was on the ice? Stop the presses. 

[Been There Done That]

4 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

Russo's article pointed out:

• Bogosian lives in MN in the offseason
• Bogosian's brother works for the Wild in their 'Personal Performance' analytics group
• Bogosian is good friends with Maroon

Fake Bill Guerin Quote:

 

It appears my original thought was indeed correct. Another bone headed BG move designed not to improve the squad,  but to surround himself with more golf/drinking buddies. I simply cannot wait for the next move. This is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Yikes!!

[MNCountryLife]

A lot of unhappy campers with this trade.  Addison wasn't getting the ice time... nor was Dean going to give it to him in the near future.  So I am glad Addison is at least able to go to a team and get a chance.  We should at least be happy for Addison.  If players feel they are not being treated fairly or others on the team are not getting deserved chances... it can really hurt the locker room.

I'm not real familiar with Bogosian.  I'll at least give the guy a chance in a Wild sweater.    What a coach asks of a player can dictate penalty minutes and how they produce on the ice.  I'll be curious to see how Dean uses him.

[TCMooch]

Guerin is an idiot and has to go. I'll probably get my wish once the Marcus Foligno contract expires in 4 years and Kaprizov has gone on to a better managed team that is actually a threat in the playoffs.

[TCMooch]

Honestly, at this rate I can't wait for a forward to get hurt and instead of calling up somebody with talent from our prospect pool he just goes out and signs Nick Ritchie because "he ticks all the right boxes".

[MacGyver]

I'm going to hold off on the we should be happy for Addison or a player friendly deal for Addison until I hear from  Addison on how he honestly feels about being traded to the worst team in the league for a used stick bag. Of course we will never know. 

BG has a way of creating a toxic environment for players that he doesn't really care for and it doesn't take much to be that player. The boxes that need to be checked are you are young with promising skills that maybe need a little time to develop, you are under 200 pounds and you have not won a Cup on a team somewhere else a long time ago. Oh and if you have more than two years to play before you hang it up. 

I think BG lacks a few people skills that are required to be a good NHL GM. 

[Pewterschmidt]

1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

BG has a way of creating a toxic environment for players that he doesn't really care for and it doesn't take much to be that player.

This is what seems to be exposing itself over BG’s time here.  Might just be a BG quirk.  Might be something more sinister.  This quirk might explain the extensions for players being rewarded for their loyalty.  This might get a little insular/incestuous over time.  
again, if we’re winning 2-3 years from now no one will care, but if we’re still going sideways BG will look like a 3rd world dictator

Edited November 10, 2023 by Pewterschmidt

[M_Nels]

13 hours ago, TCMooch said:

Guerin is an idiot and has to go. I'll probably get my wish once the Marcus Foligno contract expires in 4 years and Kaprizov has gone on to a better managed team that is actually a threat in the playoffs.

Kaprizov isn't doing himself any favors right now either, doesn't look like the same dynamic, gamebreaking player we've come accustom to.

Curious on why you think Guerin is such an idiot? I don't agree with several of his decisions, mainly the Zucc, Freddy, Moose extensions for the money and term but I think they are trending in the right direction with the latest draft picks. Bringing in 1yr rentals in cap hell doesn't make him an idiot.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

15 hours ago, Tony Abbott said:

Andrei Vasilevskiy had a .920 save percentage when Bogosian was on the ice? Stop the presses. 

I did say better than. It was 94.5% in 2021-2022. I know it's a team stat, so it's certainly not all Bogosian, but consistently having a low number for that stat still looks bad for an individual, in my opinion.

The Lightning finished those seasons with .913 and .909 team goalie save percentages.  The Wild finished those seasons with team goalie save percentages of .911 and .919, so the Wild saved a higher percentage of shots over that span of time, but Addison's team was far worse when he was on the ice.

Bogo doesn't really help offense, so his +/- isn't great either, but still ends up better than the guy Guerin just dropped to the Sharks. Over those 2 seasons, Tampa was about 5 total goals better in goal differential, so not a drastic difference there. Bogo was -2 in 94 games. Addison was -21 in 81 games.

No question that Addison has more potential, but I guess they thought it was best to let him realize it elsewhere.

[Pewterschmidt]

7 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Bogo doesn't really help offense, so his +/- isn't great either, but still ends up better than the guy Guerin just dropped to the Sharks.

It might be just the beard, but Bogo is a super sized Jordie Benn.  Slightly better than Benn in every aspect of his game.  Didn’t mind bogo's game at all.  Good to have a big, intimidating dman on the roster. 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

Just now, Pewterschmidt said:

Good to have a big, intimidating dman on the roster. 

Speaking of that, I was just looking at Vancouver's roster and they now have both of the Wild's 3rd pairing D-men from 2020-2021.

Ian Cole and Carson Soucy both have nice size and play winning hockey. Rick Tocchet really has that squad playing at a high level. Canucks are leading the league in goal differential by 12 goals over the next closest team!

[Pewterschmidt]

16 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

I was just looking at Vancouver's roster and they now have both of the Wild's 3rd pairing D-men from 2020-2021.

More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

[Will D. Ness]

2 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

Much easier.  Grit is nowhere near equal to talent.  Grit & talent = $$

[Imyourhuckleberry]

6 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

They are being paid $3M(Cole) and $3.25M(Soucy) per year, which would be 3rd and 4th among Wild defensemen. The cap hits really hurt the depth talent.

I'm very interested to see how the Wild perform with Spurgeon back.

[M_Nels]

15 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

I'm very interested to see how the Wild perform with Spurgeon back.

Probably no one near as excited as Mids that he’s coming back. We all know what Faber-Brodin can do, 2nd pairing is stable  now and we get a look at Bogo-Mermis to see how they do. Expecting it to be much better. 

[Protec]

 

 

Pewterschmidt said: More evidence that it's easier to find a serviceable d-man than it is to find a 50+ pt top 6 forward

True but it's the reason they cost more and are more difficult to retain along with potentially having other issues like injuries, temperament, consistently, etc.

I think MN would be better off today had Spurgeon and Boldy been around from day one. At the same time Guerin's moves might be polarizing but they're generally not big risks. At this point, his recent contracts haven't been the singular reason for MN's struggles. Does it appear to be something that will handcuff the team? Sure, I would say yes today but plenty can happen in the coming months let alone next few years. 

I like that Guerin isn't static. If Addison isn't doing what the Wild want him to do, then how long do you hold a guy the coach doesn't intend to play much? As far as Bogo, he's exactly what teams in the Central need. The Wild need more from Boldy and Kaprizov. They need more from Gus. They need their Captain back. 

Yeah it's a rough stretch but I don't think the Wild are screwed or Guerin is a loser. These are the worst cap years and the Wild's PP is the real problem. On the GM subject, he's not getting fired anytime soon. Might as well focus complaints on injuries and horseshit PP. This team was good last season. If Spurge returns and Gus, Boldy, and Kaprizov get going with any input from the PP,  the Wild will be a much better team. Did we think they'd be better than Vegas or Boston, no. They just need to make the playoffs.

Better to deal with injuries now and sort out roster issues now. Could Hunt be a good NHL defenseman after 40 games? Maybe, but how will the Wild know? This whole two moves are blown out of proportion IMO. Everyone is sour cause the Wild are losing and it's Guerin's fault because Fiala left and MN signs placeholders. I thought that's what we thought was gonna happen?

Edited November 10, 2023 by Protec

[Lovehockey]

On 11/9/2023 at 2:42 PM, M_Nels said:

Since Billy's been GM the 1st rounders have been: Boldy, Rossi, Wall, Ohgren & Stramel. That doesn't include all the later round picks for who else we have in the pipeline. Wall is the exception since he's a goalie but you can't argue these other picks are guys that "play in their image". 

Too nearsighted to call for Billy's head and call him a bust of a GM for bringing in 1yr rentals. Got some exciting prospects in the system that aren't in the mold of Maroon, Reaves, BOGO etc. NOW that being said you can make an argument for Dean and his ability for development/utilization of these guys. IMO you can't lump Billy & Dean together in this aspect. Will Dean still be here when the younger guys start to come up? We can hope not but 1yr rentals in cap hell don't define your GM and his draft picks. 

 

Boldy was drafted by Falton and not BG. Rossi is ok but nothing exceptional. He actually is FIala replacement in the Guerin view but he is not even close. Everyone else (even Walstad) are unproven. So nothing makes any sense 

[Lovehockey]

The only thing is I am absolutely sure that Addison is happy to be out. Wait for more young players not willing to play for MInnesota.