Article: The Wild Are Becoming An Immovable Object

[Tony Abbott]

View full article

[Pewterschmidt]

Ugh 

[MrCheatachu]

I dont think looking at the number of NTC/NMC's on a team tells the full picture.  Some players consider those to be valuable and take lower $$ in exchange for them.  It takes out some flexibility (just ask Eric Staal)

 

[vonlonster67]

So does cost certainty moving forward apply to fans also? Does our support of the Wild equate to flexibility and the ability to not trade our team for another? 

Geez Tony, just when I was starting to feel better about some of the money spent and accepting it, I got that sick feeling in the bottom pit of my stomach again.

 

[vonlonster67]

2023-24 NO-TRADE CLAUSES
•    Frederick Gauthier (15-team no-trade list)
•    Marcus Johansson
•    Pat Maroon (16-team trade list)
•    Mats Zuccarello (10-team no-trade list)
2023-24 NO-MOVEMENT CLAUSES
•    Jonas Brodin
•    Marc-Andre Fleury
•    Alex Goligoski
•    Jared Spurgeon

2024-25 NO-TRADE CLAUSES
•    Joel Eriksson Ek (10-team no-trade list)
•    Jared Spurgeon (10-team no-trade list)
•    Frédérick Gaudreau (15-team no-trade list)
•    Marcus Johansson
2024-25 NO-MOVEMENT CLAUSES
•    Kirill Kaprizov
•    Jonas Brodin 
•    Mats Zuccarello
•    Ryan Hartman
•    Marcus Foligno

2025-26 NO-TRADE CLAUSES
•    Joel Eriksson Ek (10-team no-trade list)
•    Ryan Hartman (10-team no-trade list)
•    Jared Spurgeon (10-team no-trade list)
•    Frédérick Gaudreau (15-team no-trade list)

2024-25 NO-MOVEMENT CLAUSES
•    Kirill Kaprizov
•    Jonas Brodin 
•    Mats Zuccarello
•     Marcus Foligno

 

 

[Tom Gribalski]

Well, on the positive side of it, if we can't move most of our pieces, maybe they'll be so good that we don't want to move them :)

[Will D. Ness]

Yeah, what's done is done and I just hope that we are overreacting here and these extensions are not going to limit our window of opportunity.  I agree with everything said here... but:

Let's let the guys go out and prove themselves.  I'm ready for the season to start!

[TCMooch]

This has got to be one of the shittiest "cores in the NHL" right? Other than teams just trying to make the cap floor?

 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

36 minutes ago, TCMooch said:

This has got to be one of the shittiest "cores in the NHL" right? Other than teams just trying to make the cap floor?

Given that the Wild went into Vegas with a chance to overtake them for the conference in early April, even after Kaprizov had been missing for several games, I'm going to say probably not.

Did anyone other than Boston post more standings points from December through the end of March than the Wild?

They went from 10-9-2 to 44-22-9 over those 4 months(34-13-7, which is on pace for roughly 114 points), then lost Shaw and Eriksson-Ek to injury, with Kaprizov still on the mend. A banged up Wild team faltered in the playoffs, but they certainly played better than most "teams trying to make the cap floor".

[Protec]

Yeah, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The Wild have the ability to buyout poorer deals if they go real bad and the penalties will end while the cap goes up. 

If the Wild's players respond to the good contracts and the young players progress MN should be really good again. Boston, Toronto, Colorado, Dallas all came up short last year too. I'd say Vegas is the team to beat in the West but their goaltending holding up is a question. I don't scoff at the Wild's core. They've been crummy on paper to a lot of onlookers for the last fee years while they've climbed to the top of the Central. They've held the top spot both of the last two years. If Benn or Hintz had got injured late last it coulda been different. 

The Wild look good. We should cross the geriatric contracts bridge when we come to it.

[vonlonster67]

Watch Hunter Haight for free with CHL Game of the Week Freeview

Schedule - October 2023  

Week 1    
Flint @ Saginaw
Oct. 11, 2023
7:05PM ET

https://chl.ca/chl-game-of-week-schedule/#1636731528846-b86612b8-acfc

[AKwildkraken]

37 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

Watch Hunter Haight for free with CHL Game of the Week Freeview

Schedule - October 2023  

Week 1    
Flint @ Saginaw
Oct. 11, 2023
7:05PM ET

https://chl.ca/chl-game-of-week-schedule/#1636731528846-b86612b8-acfc

Hopefully I will remember.

[vonlonster67]

3 hours ago, Tom Gribalski said:

Well, on the positive side of it, if we can't move most of our pieces, maybe they'll be so good that we don't want to move them :)

Thx TG, we may need your positivity now and in da future as we all take our turns on here sum dayz circling the drain......

[Tony Abbott]

2 hours ago, Protec said:

Yeah, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. The Wild have the ability to buyout poorer deals if they go real bad and the penalties will end while the cap goes up. 

Think per the CBA, they'll only be able to buy out one more deal as long as the Parise/Suter buyouts are on the books, which they will be for the next six seasons.

[Been There Done That]

So I've tried really hard not to put this out there, but Tony,  you make it too darn easy. If I'm either of our young Russian prospects, I'm signing a 3 yr. extension with the KHL. Why take a step down to come over here to play in the AHL? AND with no spots available for 2-3 yrs. if I'm Walker, Beckman, and a few other Iowa studs, I'm asking for a trade please. Also, look for future draft picks to say 'no thank you' to signing with the Wild knowing they won't get a fair shake like the above mentioned. BG and DE have made it abundantly clear, until you're 25-26 yrs old, unless your name is Wallstedt, we don't want you. I'm hoping for the best, I simply can't see it with this core of aging overpriced mediocrity. I'm in Tony's camp. 

[Protec]

^^^

That's a good point but Russia prospects can't really turn their nose up at the AHL cause you can't go straight to the NHL from the KHL at a young age either unless you're #97. 

The guys like Beckman and Walker have paid AHL dues and should get a shot before KHL prospects or younger picks anyway. The contract structure Guerin has built is setting precedents and allowing this group another kick at the can. If it doesn't work again, there will be justifiable reason to replace the coach or tweak the roster.

If buyouts are not an option due to penalties then the potential to move guys is there. If a young guy tries to posture or get moved then wish ya well, cause Guerin doesn't like that tactic. 

Some players probably will be moved in another year or two but we've also seen Guerin sit guys out. I won't be surprised to see a 4M player in the press box. Happened to Rask, and Goligoski somewhat. Therefore MN's "old immovable core" isn't guaranteed to demoralize and drive out young players.

I think it's wise to develop the culture and organization guys wanna be part of and by making players earn it, the most driven, hungry, talented guys should be fine. To say none have a chance til age 25-26 just isn't true considering all the young guys Guerin and Dean have used. 

My feeling is that this year they move some young players and get another guy for the playoffs. The Wild are in win now mode, not throw all the rookies out there ASAP territory. I really don't care if the Wild win with vets and make younger guys wait. That's how it is on a good team. If you wanna go full McBain to Arizona or Mennell to Russia and then back to AHL, that's probably fine with Guerin. He's the boss, so until the younger players blow doors off everyone, you gotta be patient. I just don't see why it should be different for hockey than in a corporate scenario. Like does the entry-level guy get automatically pumped up to managment or executive level in a year or two? Generally not. So, sure ask for a trade and then end up starting over in the pecking order elsewhere that requires you to earn it. Guerin picks the core, not 3rd round picks from the AHL or Russia prospects. 

My .02 cents is if you don't like it or feel entitled, then sorry you got picked by MN. Tufte is a similar example perhaps since he's looked good in Colorado but couldn't get a shot in Dallas. Yeah it might happen to a Wild prospect or two but what did we really expect? In a couple seasons more changes will occur and the Wild's aging contracts will be balanced by entry level guys who can contribute.

[TCMooch]

12 hours ago, Tony Abbott said:

Think per the CBA, they'll only be able to buy out one more deal as long as the Parise/Suter buyouts are on the books, which they will be for the next six seasons.

On a positive note, the world as we know it will probably be over before then.

[vonlonster67]

10 hours ago, Been There Done That said:

So I've tried really hard not to put this out there, but Tony,  you make it too darn easy. If I'm either of our young Russian prospects, I'm signing a 3 yr. extension with the KHL. Why take a step down to come over here to play in the AHL? AND with no spots available for 2-3 yrs. if I'm Walker, Beckman, and a few other Iowa studs, I'm asking for a trade please. Also, look for future draft picks to say 'no thank you' to signing with the Wild knowing they won't get a fair shake like the above mentioned. BG and DE have made it abundantly clear, until you're 25-26 yrs old, unless your name is Wallstedt, we don't want you. I'm hoping for the best, I simply can't see it with this core of aging overpriced mediocrity. I'm in Tony's camp. 

So please correlate this theory on how KK, Boldy and Faber cracked the lineup?

[M_Nels]

12 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

So please correlate this theory on how KK, Boldy and Faber cracked the lineup?

Can go a step further and add Shaw, Duhaime & Dewar to this list as well.

[Sviginak]

Eight empty chairs next season, thirteen the season after that, and sixteen the year after that. Plenty of room for prospects. They just need to kick in the door, or at least knock loudly, and be available in Iowa, not somewhere much further east.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

8 hours ago, Protec said:

^^^

That's a good point but Russia prospects can't really turn their nose up at the AHL cause you can't go straight to the NHL from the KHL at a young age either unless you're #97. 

The guys like Beckman and Walker have paid AHL dues and should get a shot before KHL prospects or younger picks anyway. The contract structure Guerin has built is setting precedents and allowing this group another kick at the can. If it doesn't work again, there will be justifiable reason to replace the coach or tweak the roster.

If buyouts are not an option due to penalties then the potential to move guys is there. If a young guy tries to posture or get moved then wish ya well, cause Guerin doesn't like that tactic. 

Some players probably will be moved in another year or two but we've also seen Guerin sit guys out. I won't be surprised to see a 4M player in the press box. Happened to Rask, and Goligoski somewhat. Therefore MN's "old immovable core" isn't guaranteed to demoralize and drive out young players.

I think it's wise to develop the culture and organization guys wanna be part of and by making players earn it, the most driven, hungry, talented guys should be fine. To say none have a chance til age 25-26 just isn't true considering all the young guys Guerin and Dean have used. 

My feeling is that this year they move some young players and get another guy for the playoffs. The Wild are in win now mode, not throw all the rookies out there ASAP territory. I really don't care if the Wild win with vets and make younger guys wait. That's how it is on a good team. If you wanna go full McBain to Arizona or Mennell to Russia and then back to AHL, that's probably fine with Guerin. He's the boss, so until the younger players blow doors off everyone, you gotta be patient. I just don't see why it should be different for hockey than in a corporate scenario. Like does the entry-level guy get automatically pumped up to managment or executive level in a year or two? Generally not. So, sure ask for a trade and then end up starting over in the pecking order elsewhere that requires you to earn it. Guerin picks the core, not 3rd round picks from the AHL or Russia prospects. 

My .02 cents is if you don't like it or feel entitled, then sorry you got picked by MN. Tufte is a similar example perhaps since he's looked good in Colorado but couldn't get a shot in Dallas. Yeah it might happen to a Wild prospect or two but what did we really expect? In a couple seasons more changes will occur and the Wild's aging contracts will be balanced by entry level guys who can contribute.

It is more the reality for our prospects. We are sending the message if you want a shot go elsewhere and that will kill our prospect pool in a hurry. This team hasn't just had one kick at the can, the core has had several. The only way we improve is through the draft, that is exactly why we brought Jude in. What is the point of having a prospect system that is rated so well when we stuff the team full of NMC's for middling players. If everybody wanted to be here so bad, why did we pay a premium for a player like Foligno? And for the fact that we handed everyone(or close to) trade protections, why didn't we see more of a discount?

The guy I really feel for right now is Sammy Walker. Guerin is constantly saying "prove it" and the guy goes out and pots 2 goals, 2 assists and is all over the ice in preseason. His reward? He might be first call up when someone gets injured depending on our salary cap? Guys want a chance at the NHL, knowing there is no opportunity or even if you do make it up Deano is going to put you under a microscope while ignoring the failings of those around you really puts a damper on that.

 

This "core" isn't good enough and it is damn hard to get more talent added when we have next to zero opportunities for new guys, traded or drafted. BTDT makes a really good point above; Those Russian prospects are probably reevaluating whether or not to resign in the K right now, especially with the pressure the K likes to put on to keep guys there. They make substantially more in the K than the A and with little room for advancement to the big show, I don't see much motivation for them not to sign that next contract in the K. While some our best prospects stay elsewhere or try to chart their own path to the show we will be busy blowing the budget on walkers and wheelchair for our geriatric core. Prospects don't owe the Wild their loyalty and expecting them not to look out for themselves is a fool's errand. 

[vonlonster67]

18 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

It is more the reality for our prospects. We are sending the message if you want a shot go elsewhere and that will kill our prospect pool in a hurry. This team hasn't just had one kick at the can, the core has had several. The only way we improve is through the draft, that is exactly why we brought Jude in. What is the point of having a prospect system that is rated so well when we stuff the team full of NMC's for middling players. If everybody wanted to be here so bad, why did we pay a premium for a player like Foligno? And for the fact that we handed everyone(or close to) trade protections, why didn't we see more of a discount?

The guy I really feel for right now is Sammy Walker. Guerin is constantly saying "prove it" and the guy goes out and pots 2 goals, 2 assists and is all over the ice in preseason. His reward? He might be first call up when someone gets injured depending on our salary cap? Guys want a chance at the NHL, knowing there is no opportunity or even if you do make it up Deano is going to put you under a microscope while ignoring the failings of those around you really puts a damper on that.

 

This "core" isn't good enough and it is damn hard to get more talent added when we have next to zero opportunities for new guys, traded or drafted. BTDT makes a really good point above; Those Russian prospects are probably reevaluating whether or not to resign in the K right now, especially with the pressure the K likes to put on to keep guys there. They make substantially more in the K than the A and with little room for advancement to the big show, I don't see much motivation for them not to sign that next contract in the K. While some our best prospects stay elsewhere or try to chart their own path to the show we will be busy blowing the budget on walkers and wheelchair for our geriatric core. Prospects don't owe the Wild their loyalty and expecting them not to look out for themselves is a fool's errand. 

Both Dino and Yurov want to be here. This is the best league in the world and they know they get to play with a Russian superstar in KK. When they do come, they'll never see IA.

If your worried about having a place here they will displace players in lines 1-3 and our present 4th line will change. You can pick a player from each line to trickle down to fill that 4th line.

Good players like Walker and Beckman types aren't going to crack our lineups. Great players will and it's been proven with KK, Boldy, Faber and now maybe Rossi.

I feel for Walker, but he brings talent, not size or a physical presence to displace anyone. He's a complimentary player to a good line. He's not elite or great, just good.

[mnfaninnc]

2 hours ago, TCMooch said:

On a positive note, the world as we know it will probably be over before then.

This is probably as optimistic as Mooch gets!

[Beast]

17 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Given that the Wild went into Vegas with a chance to overtake them for the conference in early April, even after Kaprizov had been missing for several games, I'm going to say probably not.

Did anyone other than Boston post more standings points from December through the end of March than the Wild?

They went from 10-9-2 to 44-22-9 over those 4 months(34-13-7, which is on pace for roughly 114 points), then lost Shaw and Eriksson-Ek to injury, with Kaprizov still on the mend. A banged up Wild team faltered in the playoffs, but they certainly played better than most "teams trying to make the cap floor".

“A banged up Wild team faltered in the playoffs.”

With all due respect, that is the most rose colored assessment I’ve seen.

The way I see it:  Everybody is banged up in the playoffs.  Dallas had multiple injuries that were just as, or more, impactful (Pavelski missed multiple games). Bottom line is we got our assess kicked by the Dallas Stars.

What’s the excuse for losing in the first round the year before?  And the year before that? And the year before that?  It’s been the same coaches and group of guys, give or take a 4th liner here or there, Suter, Parise, etc. for much of those playoff ass kickings.

This roster isn’t going to all of the sudden turn into a Stanley contender.  Spurgeon isn’t going to grow 8 inches and become a competent playoff defenseman.  Kirill Kaprisov isn’t going to improve from a .5 point per game, and -5 playoff player with Hartman and Zucc.  Boldly has 1 goal, 4 points, and -6 in 12 games.  Is he going to turn into a Conn Smythe contender playing with Mojo and Ek?

We’re doing the same thing repeatedly, expecting different results.  If we need to run it back this year to keep butts in the seats, fine.  But the next 3-4 years?  

[MNCountryLife]

Tony, I think you are spot on here.  It is something that I have concerns with as well.  Flexibility of a roster can be critical if an opportunity arises.  I like that Guerin is trying to place the best players he has at his disposal on the ice to win now.  But it is coming at a cost to roster flexibility.  Which is exacerbated because of the Parise/Suter buyouts.