Article: The Stakes Were Way Too High To Go Away From Gustavsson In Game 2

[Tony Abbott]

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[Jon]

All I can say for Wild fans harping on the decision for MAF to start, you’re not wrong to be against that decisions with all your pain and frustration. 

There, there.

Keep in mind the Wild will be the inferior team as the playoffs go on. I wouldn’t cry doom and gloom after two games in the playoffs lol. It was certainly a bad loss. Let’s see how they respond in G3 at home.

[Protec]

Let’s just say MAF is a .900 goalie. That’s cause he has some games around .950 and some around .850 or worse. Overall he’s still a hall of famer and he’s had some outstanding games in MN. Are the coaches morons and is Fleury toast? Nah. It’s just one shitty game where the Wild gave up 3 uncontested breakaways from the blueline in,  a back-door tappy, and two deflecteros which is not characteristic for the Wild. 
 

Five-game series now. That’s all.

[Beast]

Agree.  Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

Its not the loss that is so disastrous.  It’s how they lost.  They got their asses kicked.  Both on the scoreboard and physically.

If you lose that game, but it’s a tight one, or you wear them down physically, Dallas is still thinking in the back of their mind how they gave up home ice, have to go to St. Paul, etc.  There is no question in anyones mind after that, on either side, that Dallas is the by far the better team here.  

It’s possible the same thing happens if Guatavsson starts.  Maybe even probable.  But, I think what they did last night propels Dallas to a fairly easy series win.  It won’t go beyond 6.  We took what hope and momentum from lucking into a game 1 win and threw it back at them like a hot potato.  Frankly, a pretty gutless performance all around.

The real dagger is Kaprisov appears to have been taken out of the series by the Suter cross check.  He was bad last night.  -2 with 12 penalty minutes and 2 shots.

I knew this team probably wasn’t going to make it far.  But, last night was just absolutely sickening and embarrassing.

 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

Quote

Many people still question why the Wild didn't go with Cam Talbot before Game 6. The answer? Talbot had a poor year despite a late surge and was weak in particular to the kind of offense St. Louis ran.

Talbot had a poor stretch in the middle of the year when he had been injured and was working his way back, which also coincided with injuries to the Wild defense and created a horrible situation for goalie success.

Prior to his injury, Talbot was playing at a very high level, and he had started to return to that level prior to Fleury joining the Wild. Once Fleury was on the team, Talbot returned to playing at a very high level, and was clearly playing better than Fleury. Fleury also had plenty of bad games against good teams last season, and Talbot should have been in goal for game #1.

Fleury played about equal this season to what he did last year with the Wild, so it's hard to believe anyone would think both that Fleury deserved to start the playoffs last year AND that he didn't deserve any starts in this playoffs.

If Gustavsson started and they lost 5-3, and returned home 1-1, who do you start then?

Dallas is the better team right now, partly because they are the healthier team. The Wild were almost certainly going to lose game 2 with either goalie in the net(that's just how playoffs tend to go with even teams), but now they'll go back home with a still confident #1 goalie and a team highly motivated to get back in the win column.

Frankly, Dallas was extremely close to putting up 5 goals in game 1, between Wild defensemen swiping away shot attempts at the open sides of half-open goals and the pipes hit--Gus was both lucky and good.

I believe Gustavsson is the significantly better goalie AND that Fleury playing game 2 was in the best interest of the long-term chances in the playoffs for the Wild.

The Wild need their top 2 centers and their best scorer to heal up, and if at least 2 of those guys don't get close to healthy, Dallas is simply a better team. If the Wild were clearly the better team, they would have started this series at home.

Gus should be fresh and ready for the home games, where the Wild should have a better chance at winning games. If the Wild win all of their home games...series won!

[CammieBuckeye29]

34 minutes ago, Beast said:

Agree.  Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

Its not the loss that is so disastrous.  It’s how they lost.  They got their asses kicked.  Both on the scoreboard and physically.

If you lose that game, but it’s a tight one, or you wear them down physically, Dallas is still thinking in the back of their mind how they gave up home ice, have to go to St. Paul, etc.  There is no question in anyones mind after that, on either side, that Dallas is the by far the better team here.  

It’s possible the same thing happens if Guatavsson starts.  Maybe even probable.  But, I think what they did last night propels Dallas to a fairly easy series win.  It won’t go beyond 6.  We took what hope and momentum from lucking into a game 1 win and threw it back at them like a hot potato.  Frankly, a pretty gutless performance all around.

The real dagger is Kaprisov appears to have been taken out of the series by the Suter cross check.  He was bad last night.  -2 with 12 penalty minutes and 2 shots.

I knew this team probably wasn’t going to make it far.  But, last night was just absolutely sickening and embarrassing.

 

I don't disagree with some of what you said but I vehemently disagree with other parts. Fleury is to blame for the Benn goal and the poor save selection on Hintz breakaway goal where he went for the poke check instead of being patient. Other than that, completely boneheaded plays where possession was just handed to Dallas or atrocious defensive coverage were to blame. But to say Fleury hasn't been good for a while is abjectly false. He had a .928 SV% in March. He's been above a .900 for most of the season. Does he have the occasional stinker? Yes. So does every single goalie in this league (see Ullmark last night).  The Wild did get their asses handed to them in Game 2. You're correct. It was their soft play, boneheaded mistakes, and poor defensive coverage that led to the L. 

[CammieBuckeye29]

Also, forgot to add: his contract is a 35+ contract. You'd still have to pay 2/3 of it if you bought it out, adding $1,166,667 to the already sky high buyout cap hits. No way GMBG does that. Fleury also has a full no move clause. Unless you're trading him to Pittsburgh or Montreal, I doubt he waives it. 

[mnfaninnc]

I do not understand Evason's logic: "It's what we've done all season." If that's the logic behind this, we need a new coach. However, I do, wholeheartedly agree with the decision to start MAF in the game.  I suggested this prior to game 1, to tell both goalies that Goose2 has the net for game 1 and MAF has it for game 2.  Going to double OT in game 1 even made the decision easier.

Out of all of Tony's stats, did he mention the one where the teams had a HOF caliber goalie as the backup?  No. Game 1 was already in the win column.  We'd come away with our goal.  We'd lost Hartsy for game 2, we probably were resting Ek since we won game 1. 2 extra days to heal are probably huge with a broken leg. 

Our guys in front of Fleury never did their job. Cammie's right about the poke check, and he committed to it too early. The Dallas speed appeared to be too much for our D. I question if Merrill can even keep up. Giving up those breakaways, though, that wasn't on Fleury.

If I were in Evason's shoes, I would want Fleury to see the arena, get the sight lines, get the feel, everything's different in the playoffs. Oettinger wasn't particularly good in this game, goalies lose a tremendous amount of fluid and to go that long in game 1, it would take an extra day.  We had the luxury of winning game 1, nobody was able to match the Dallas desperation in game 2. Oettinger will still feel the affects of these 2 games, Gustavsson will not.  If he's hot and does well in game 3, I'd consider a game 4 start.  If it goes deep into OT again, I'd start Fleury game 4.  We've got the depth, but for it to be depth, you've got to use it.  

To me, Faber played well and Brodin played pretty well, that was it for the defenders.  The forwards needed far more physical punishing, I thought Duhaime played well, and Dewar should have been elevated to another line.  Boldy at C wasn't a good move, but we likely had little choice.  

One thing that was nice was that Kaprizov didn't score.  Why? Because all year, he has been beastly in games he didn't score in the following game.  We didn't waste one of his goals.  No idea where Zuccarello is? 

We just need to tighten up everything defensively in our building.  Gus is better there too.  Getting the 1st goal will be important.  Running their D will also be important. I heard on the radio today that Pavelski won't be traveling with them to St. Paul.  Now we need to make life tough on Seguin. And, we left Benn alone, that must be rectified.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

Deano in a nutshell; good in reg season, hopeless in playoffs. Not sure if this was BG's decision or Dean's but it went against all logic and stats. Seems like we are playing checkers while everyone else is playing chess. 

We should be putting out our best guys we can every single game, that isn't a hard concept. 

The fact we had to watch our FO go against the conventional playoff wisdom again is astounding. Don't bother listening to every coach that has ever won a cup, or recent history, just put in Fleury because he is a great locker room guy.

If BG/DE don't win this series I think they soundly have proven they are not going to be the ones to get us there. I know we are under cap, etc. This was a opportunity dropped on our part and a momentum shift that will make the next game even harder. DE is proving that he wasn't cut out for playoffs or crucial adjustments, year after year.

To those saying Gus needed the rest, that is not how anyone looks at playoffs. You have a hot goaltender who is also statistically the second best in the league, you play him. Nuts to whatever deluded idea of the playoffs you had.

"This is the way we do things." is an awful excuse. We used to encourage smoking in pregnant women and use asbestos in most of our buildings. Doing things the same way because that is the way we do things is the worst cop out ever.

I'm not putting the loss all on Fleury but it was a major factor. I don't even blame Fleury for his bad play, I blame our front office. Once again, out coached and shot ourselves in the foot, story of Dean's career.

[B1GKappa97]

I completely disagree. The stakes were 'too high'?? That's gotta be a 4/20 pun 'cause we were up 1-0! 

The whole point pre-series was to make sure we won one on the road to get back home-ice advantage. And we did that. When else is Dean supposed to try something like this? You want the 7-3 game to happen when its 2-2? We're ahead of the game already. 

I understand it sucks we lost, especially given that it wasn't a close game, but the response to the MAF decision is over the top reactionary imo. This guy is a HoFer. He's not Kaapo Kahkonen or Alex Stalock. If he had a better game, like game 2 and 3 of the STL series, then Evason isn't getting ripped nearly so badly. 

Its not like Gustavsson was superhuman in game 1. He allowed 2 PPGs just 9 seconds into two penalties. On the first shot he faced, each time. And neither of them were difficult saves. He bounced back, sure, but it isn't as if he didn't give up a lead very quickly/easily.

MAF sure never even got the chance to maintain a lead, thanks to some poor play ahead of him in addition to his own off-night. 

 

[B1GKappa97]

39 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I do not understand Evason's logic: "It's what we've done all season." If that's the logic behind this, we need a new coach. However, I do, wholeheartedly agree with the decision to start MAF in the game.  I suggested this prior to game 1, to tell both goalies that Goose2 has the net for game 1 and MAF has it for game 2.  Going to double OT in game 1 even made the decision easier.

Our guys in front of Fleury never did their job. Cammie's right about the poke check, and he committed to it too early. The Dallas speed appeared to be too much for our D. I question if Merrill can even keep up. Giving up those breakaways, though, that wasn't on Fleury.

 

I think that's entirely fair logic. Granted this isn't the regular season, but it isn't like MAF is some scrub. We're up 1-0 on the road, we've got the advantage we wanted, why not get a little risky with the second game, knowing that teams generally even up the series after a loss in game 1? At worst you go home in a best-of-5 with home-ice and at best you go home 2-0. 

MAF and Gus play the position completely opposite. Making Dallas have to change their gameplan for a different goalie in game 2 is not a terrible idea in addition to getting your soon-to-be workhorse a little extra rest at this point of the season.

The real issue, imo, is that it seemed to be all Evason did to adjust from game 1 to game 2, besides being forced to shuffle the lineup. Dallas was all over us from the start and we never really recovered. That played a much bigger role than swapping to MAF. 

Unless Gus completely falls apart in one of these losses, he probably has the net from this point on though. 

 

[B1GKappa97]

1 hour ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Talbot had a poor stretch in the middle of the year when he had been injured and was working his way back, which also coincided with injuries to the Wild defense and created a horrible situation for goalie success.

Prior to his injury, Talbot was playing at a very high level, and he had started to return to that level prior to Fleury joining the Wild. Once Fleury was on the team, Talbot returned to playing at a very high level, and was clearly playing better than Fleury. Fleury also had plenty of bad games against good teams last season, and Talbot should have been in goal for game #1.

Except when he played the St. Louis Blues, even post-TDL. THAT is why he wasn't the game 1 starter. Plain and simple. They played the matchup, which was the right thing to do even if it didn't work in the end. 

 

The rest of it is spot-on. We got home-ice advantage back, which was all we really wanted out of the first 2 games of this series. Sucks that we lost, and badly at that, but in the words of a wise sage: that's the way she goes, boys! 

 

 

[Protec]

Quote

Two years in a row now with awful decisions made based on their personal relationships with Fleury and/or poor evaluation in terms of where Fleury is in his career right now.

I get why they made the decision.  If Fleury were still capable, I wouldn’t object.  But, he hasn’t been good for a while now.  You’re basically throwing in the towel on the game with him.  He was absolutely terrible.  The goal that went in 5 hole and he didn’t even move…..that was just an embarrassment.  Get him off the damn ice for good and talk him into not coming back next year.

So you're in the "Fleury is toast" camp. Got it.😁

Are we saying that Gustaffsson would've gone 3 for 3 stopping breakaways and the Benn-snipe, Hintz tap-in, etc.??? I mean it wasn't a Suter-muffin, it was a Benn-snipe...

Did anyone think the Wild would sweep Dallas? DeBoer is a pretty good coach. Better than Dean? Probably, he's got a beefier resume. If you're a GMBG/Fleury hater you should be happy he looked bad cause that justifies not going to him again as long as Gustaffssonn is hot. Right???

[Willy the poor boy]

2 hours ago, Protec said:

Let’s just say MAF is a .900 goalie. That’s cause he has some games around .950 and some around .850 or worse. Overall he’s still a hall of famer and he’s had some outstanding games in MN. Are the coaches morons and is Fleury toast? Nah. It’s just one shitty game where the Wild gave up 3 uncontested breakaways from the blueline in,  a back-door tappy, and two deflecteros which is not characteristic for the Wild. 
 

Five-game series now. That’s all.

And we now have the home ice advantage. I was hoping for a Gus Bus start, but who knows how that would have turned out. It sure would be nice being up 2-0 though.

[jgodwin17]

Starting Fleury was the wrong call, not only because Gus has been a better goalie all season in every measurable category, but also because he was coming off a hot game 1 performance.

Did the Wild play a sloppier game last night? Absolutely. Did Fleury face some high danger scoring chances? Definitely. Did he stop any of them? No, no really. He even let in some incredibly embarrassing goals like the five hole power play goal that most college goalies would have easily stopped. He also played all three of the break away goalies incredibly poorly. If it wasn’t for our defensemen sweeping away his bad rebounds and blocking shots when he was out of position the game could have easily been 10 or 12 to 3.

The Wild dug themselves a hole early in the game, and when they started to dig themselves out of it, Fleury let them down letting in a soft goal. That took the energy out of the team. He did this multiple times against St. Louis last year. I know he is a HOF goaltender, I know he is a great guy, but he just doesn’t have it anymore.

TL:DR The Wild were probably going to lose this game either way. They had a chance to win it with Gus in the net, they did not with Fleury.

 

 

 

[Protec]

^^^

Hindsight-factor is multiplied after a loss. We can agree who all played a bad game cause we watched it happen together. To get Gusstafvson back between the pipes with his positive momentum isn't a bad thing. If the Wild got smoked game two and Fleury is on the bench then what goalie-mojo do you have for game three?

I mean there's so many ways to look at it? You're totally right that when the Wild got going a little bit, Dallas scored. Fleury knows what the team needs and he didn't deliver. He's better than that and I'm sure he's frustrated knowing it was a bad game for him.

Now the Wild should be poised to come back stronger.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Except when he played the St. Louis Blues

Fleury gave up 5 goals in regulation and 4 goals in regulation the last 2 times he faced the Blues, which were in February before he joined the Wild.

Talbot gave up 3 goals and 5 goals in regulation(excluding the 3 on 3 hockey that would not happen in the playoffs) the last 2 time he faced the Blues.

The Wild should have let Fleury face the Blues in one of those games in the regular season, then they'd have had a more informed opinion for their decision. Neither of them were good against a healthy Blues roster, but it sure seemed like Talbot had earned the start through superior play down the stretch.

In Fleury's last 7 games before a meaningless finale(primarily against Colorado's AHL affiliate), Fleury had been giving up over 3.5 goals per game. In Talbot's last 7 meaningful games, which does include all goals against in both of those St. Louis losses(both in OT), he had a goals against average of 2.43.

Fleury got rewarded for playing significantly worse down the stretch last season. I fully expected him to play in the playoffs at some point, just not in game 1. Same with this season.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

They played the matchup, which was the right thing to do even if it didn't work in the end. 

I forgot to mention that Talbot also had the better career save percentage in the playoffs, but a significant margin. Fleury played for a lot of good teams, and found success on those superior teams, particularly closer to his prime. Talbot was much closer to his prime, and had been showing superior results.

All in all, it's not that important because the Wild were unlikely to topple Colorado had they conquered the Blues, and the decision that didn't sit right in Talbot's world did lead to bringing in Gus.

I can understand the frustration on the part of Talbot and those close to him as there was very little in recent history to suggest that Talbot was not the best option for the team going into game 1 last season, and the 0-4 result seemed to show that the team felt that way too. He deserved game 1 and if it didn't work, they could ride with the other guy from there forward.

I'm not sure Fleury "deserved" game 2 this year, but it seemed inevitable that they would play him at some point, and now that he's had his shot, they can ride the other guy going forward, hopefully to 3 home victories so that Wild fans can thoroughly enjoy this series.

[Jon]

I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
 

Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

[jgodwin17]

8 hours ago, Jon said:

I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
 

Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

As a Minnesotan who lived in Washington state for 15 years, I’m really hoping the Kraken take the Avs out and do something this year (even if it is just losing to us). Fun to see a new team doing so well in their second season.

[mnfaninnc]

One point that hasn't really been discussed about Fleury: Locking down the puck.  

Last season, against the Blues, one criticism of Fleury is his propensity to give up rebounds and not lock it down.  Specifically, on the road, a goalie needs to be able to do this, even a HOF goalie.  We once again saw that this is not Fleury's style. I still believe it was a good move to put him in net. Maybe the coaches can talk to him about locking it down as an emphasis.

It seems like Goose2 is far better at doing this, deadening the puck and freezing it.  You'd expect that from a "calm" goalie.  This contrast in styles may be what goes further than anything as the series goes on.  I'm happy Goose2 should get game 3.  

Hopefully the team can regroup too, they've got plenty of film to make corrections.

[Willy the poor boy]

10 hours ago, Jon said:

I wish the majority of you were the majority of the Athletic Wild subscriber base. It’s a ****show there. Fire Deano here, Fleury need to be gone there, the Wild are stupid everywhere. 
 

Im finding it more fun watching the Kraken now.

Watching this fan base is fascinating and scientists may look at it in the future to study human behavior.

Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

Look at the last two seasons and the expectations going in. fringe playoff team. Deano leads them to the best franchise record ever and follows it up with 100 + points, yet he's a bum. It's as entertaining as it is frustrating.

[Pewterschmidt]

1 minute ago, Willy the poor boy said:

Watching this fan base is fascinating and scientists may look at it in the future to study human behavior.

Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

Look at the last two seasons and the expectations going in. fringe playoff team. Deano leads them to the best franchise record ever and follows it up with 100 + points, yet he's a bum. It's as entertaining as it is frustrating.

This is a great take.  Fandom is fickle in nature. The flip side to the Hartman/Dumba example is Rossi.  Holding on to a prospects promise and denying the reality in front of our face because it hurts to have to accept that Brackett clanged this one off the upright

#hottakegameday

[mnfaninnc]

3 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

Years and years of 'Dumba sucks get rid of him' to, seemingly overnight 'We gotta find a way to keep Dumba'. I was frustrated with all the 'Hartman sucks' this year. I often wondered what are they seeing that I'm not. The guy is/was a steal at his contract price and an antaganizer with talent. Probably a 30 goal scorer if he doesn't miss a 3'rd of the season. 

I wasn't one of the Dumba detractors, I've advocated for years he's better than we think.  I still think he reinvented himself the 2nd half of the season, mainly when Brodin went out. As for Hartsy, he's on a very valuable contract, but along with Dumba, something is wrong with that right shoulder and it has limited his sandpaper taking him up to a grade 200.  

It will be interesting after the season to see if both these guys go under the knife again.  And Freddy's still a bargain at $2.1m!

[CammieBuckeye29]

2 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

One point that hasn't really been discussed about Fleury: Locking down the puck.  

Last season, against the Blues, one criticism of Fleury is his propensity to give up rebounds and not lock it down.  Specifically, on the road, a goalie needs to be able to do this, even a HOF goalie.  We once again saw that this is not Fleury's style. I still believe it was a good move to put him in net. Maybe the coaches can talk to him about locking it down as an emphasis.

It seems like Goose2 is far better at doing this, deadening the puck and freezing it.  You'd expect that from a "calm" goalie.  This contrast in styles may be what goes further than anything as the series goes on.  I'm happy Goose2 should get game 3.  

Hopefully the team can regroup too, they've got plenty of film to make corrections.

Fleury plays an old school style. Even his gear is old school. As someone who has played goalie since about 2002, I appreciate his game. I also realize that Gus' style is how goalies in the NHL have to play nowadays to really have success. Goalies now are focused on more controlled movement and not having "happy feet". Fleury has adapted over the years, don't get me wrong. But fighting the instinct you've grown up with is hard. Goaltending is very much muscle memory and reactions. Fleury was and always will be a decent hybrid between the straight up butterfly blocking style and the slightly chaotic stand up style. He leans more butterfly, clearly, and has relied on his excellent reactions and quick feet his entire career. Obviously that has slowed down as he'd gotten into his later 30s. I still think he is a great goalie, he might just not be consistent starter material anymore.

The Penguins and Knights had great success with Fleury as their goalie and they adapted defensively to him and the styles of his backups. Early in his career, I feel like the Penguins cornered the market on French-Canadian goalies (Caron, Aubin, Thibault, Sabourin, Fleury) but they all played differently. Pens were atrocious but it wasn't their goaltending that was the problem. Then like Conklin, Johnson, Vokoun, Zatkoff, and Greiss came in and the Pens found success with both goalies and their differing styles (minus some playoff meltdowns which again, not all on goaltending). Then came Murray and Jarry who play very Carey Price-like but still, Pens had success with all their goalies. In Vegas, he was playing with kids half his age with varying styles until they brought Lehner in. And speaking of, Lehner is a unicorn in this league (when he was healthy). Vegas found success with the both of them. The excuse that the Wild can't adapt to the different styles of both their goalies doesn't fly for me. They are NHL players/coaches and should be smart enough to figure it out. Sure, Fleury could control some rebounds better. But also, it shouldn't be rocket science for his team to help him out a bit more.