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  • Was Yakov Trenin a Chuck Fletcher-Style Misstep From Bill Guerin?


    Tony Abbott

    With the Minnesota Wild feeling a need to get bigger and tougher, they splurged to get some edge into their lineup. Taking the last of their limited flexibility, the Wild threw a four-year, $3.5 annual average value (AAV) deal to Yakov Trenin. Why? Because those are the kind of hard-to-play-against players you need to win in the NHL, particularly come playoff time.

    "I think Yakov is, to be honest with you, an ideal third-line left winger," said Bill Guerin shortly after the signing. "For our team right now, we're in the process of learning how to win, of how to become a better team. Players like him bring different dimensions."

    Oh, crud, we messed up there. That was Chuck Fletcher back in 2015, talking about why his team threw a multi-year contract at gritty winger Matt Cooke. Apologies for the mistake. 

    This is what Guerin said about Trenin on KFAN last Wednesday: "We want to get back to our identity, and being harder to play against. We needed size, we needed grit... We felt that was the primary area that we wanted to fix."

    In spirit, this is nearly identical to what Fletcher said about Cooke in 2013. The former Wild general manager's thoughts weren't as recorded or well-preserved back in the early 2010s. However, it wouldn't be surprising if he said something similar about Torrey Mitchell, a speedy penalty killer the Wild signed for three years, $1.9 AAV in July 2012. Fletcher also might have cited getting harder to play against when he traded for Darroll Powe in June 2011, giving him a three-year, $1.067 million AAV deal a week later. Or perhaps when he signed Eric Nystrom to a three-year, $1.4 AAV contract back in July 2010.

    Those guys were all meant to fill a similar need to what Trenin is expected to fill for Minnesota. They were all fast, all physical, and had utility on the penalty kill. Fletcher paid a relative premium to get those players in a Wild uniform, giving each player three years of term. Though the price tags from a decade ago might not be shocking, it should be mentioned that Trenin's percentage of the salary cap (3.98%) isn't terribly different from Cooke's (3.89%) or Mitchell's (3.17%).

    Another thing these deals had in common: The Wild ended up regretting each of them. Nystrom lasted one season before Minnesota waived him, and the Dallas Stars claimed him. Powe played just eight games in his second season in Minnesota before the Wild flipped him in a minor move for Mike Rupp. Mitchell played uninspired hockey for two years before being a salary dump in the Matt Moulson trade. Cooke played the best of the bunch, but even he got bought out of the final year of his deal.

    All in all, the Wild spent 12 years and $20.6 million on these four players and got a combined 386 games, 80 points, and 1.1 Standings Points Above Replacement for the bunch.

    Credit to Fletcher, he eventually grew out of this habit of giving term to role players. After the Cooke signing, Fletcher gave just one more long-term deal to a third-or-fourth-line player, and his four-year pact with Marcus Foligno turned out to be an extremely solid contract. The lesson was learned.

    For Bill Guerin's first few seasons, it didn't seem like he had to learn that lesson at all. He kept the cap hits lean whenever he signed a role player to term. Inking Foligno to a three-year deal worth $3.1 million per season was a tidy bit of business. Doing the same with Ryan Hartman, but with a $1.7 million cap hit was a home run. Giving Jordan Greenway a three-year, $3 million AAV didn't work out so well, but Guerin flipped him for a second-round pick the next season.

    Then, as these cheap deals started expiring and the end of their cap hell entered their sight, there was a turn. Suddenly, Freddy Gaudreau got a five-year, $2.1 million deal, one the Wild would almost surely get out of if they could. Minnesota's cap situation meant he had to go cheap on his guys before, and as the money freed up, he rewarded "his guys" with long, expensive contracts to Foligno, Hartman, and Jake Middleton.

    Those guys are supposed to be hard to play against. Still, Minnesota wasn't last year, especially as injuries or departures for Foligno, Brandon Duhaime, Connor Dewar, and Patrick Maroon piled up. "[The last games of the year against Minnesota] got a bit softer, and that's why I can help with that," Trenin said last week. Michael Russo was more blunt on his "Worst Seats in the House" podcast on July 2: "[The Wild] don't go after Trenin today if all the guys [Guerin] extended last year -- Gaudreau, Hartman, Foligno -- did their jobs last year."

    It's a compressed version of the cycle Fletcher got caught in: Minnesota gives a player a longish-term contract that's supposed to make them harder to play against, it doesn't change the complexion of the team, and it requires them to make another similar deal in the future. 

    It might have been easy to flag Nystrom or Powe as bad investments on Day 1 had advanced stats been... well, advanced. But even through the lens of fancy stats, Mitchell should've been a fairly decent bet. At age 27, he posted solid underlying numbers over the three seasons leading up to free agency. He looks kind of like someone Wild fans might have recently gotten familiar with.

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    This isn't to say that Trenin will be a Mitchell-style flop. Instead, it's to highlight that Guerin is playing a dangerous game. When the upside is high, like with a top-pairing defenseman or top-six forward, it makes sense to roll the dice on a risky, longer-term deal. When the upside is Trenin being a good third-liner, it makes less sense. And again, we're not talking about Guerin only having one of these contracts on the books.

    If Minnesota wanted a third-liner, they could have acquired one that was cheaper and arguably better. Danton Heinen is an example of someone who drives play on a third-line better than Trenin, and he only got a two-year, $2.25 million AAV deal with the Vancouver Canucks. Blake Lizotte fits the mold of a Trenin-like defender, and the Pittsburgh Penguins landed him for two years, $1.85 million AAV. Heck, they could have just kept Brandon Duhaime at the trade deadline and re-signed him, as he got that same two-year, $1.85 AAV deal with the Washington Capitals. We're talking basically half the price and term for a very similar player.

    The State of Hockey's initial excitement with Guerin was that it represented a clean break from the Fletcher Era, especially after buying out Zach Parise and Ryan Suter, the two biggest symbols of that GM's tenure. It was a refreshing change. But seeing Guerin entering his sixth year at the helm possibly repeating a basic mistake of his predecessor should be concerning to Wild fans.

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    11 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Boldy for just $7M?

    Boldy @ $7M feels about right to me.  Now if Boldy continues to evolve and grow as an NHL'r and he adds 5 G and 5 A to his point totals and he begins to take over shifts, which I think we'll see eventually, then $7M starts to looks like value but not yet IMO 

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    1 hour ago, Protec said:

    For as often as Guerin gets ripped in comments, it's noteworthy that IA has some good talented players with potential and the Wild don't look bad at all. It's nearly the same group that has had a 85-59-20 record over the last two seasons

    IA Wild finished bottom of the pack last year (i think) and the big club missed the playoffs in a league where half the league makes the playoffs.  I think it's great to think positively but I'm getting weary hearing about the coming wave(s) of prospects, guys who may have played injured last year who'll be better this year (Fraud, Foligno, etc), new coaches, new systems, rinse repeat.  

    Guerin's regime has been a steady churn sideways IMO.  Some net positive moves (Middle's, GUS (if we can trade him)) offset by some net negative moves (overpays with term and NMC which neutralizes their trade asset value at deadline, which is GM 101 stuff.)  97 is currently the only needle mover in this group.  That's not a rip as most teams don't have a super star.  But an effective GM runs an org. that finds diamonds in rough, finds talent later rounds, trading 28 yr olds who are on back nine of career for 23 year olds who are about to break out, etc.  Ek, Boldy are legit top six NHL'rs but the rest of this cast is bottom six on any of the teams who advanced to the second round in playoffs this year.  And many (Fred, Nojo, Letteri, Linquini) can't even play a bottom six style of play.

    I know just wait until Heidt makes the team out of camp and then next year Yurov.  Year after that Granlun.....no that's a flashback.  

    As ham handed as Guerin is he does understand marketing.  I've listened to his interviews and seen his 4 nations stuff on NHL Network.  But I don't think he's got what it takes to compete with the top 16 NHL GM's.

    Edited by Pewterschmidt
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    43 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Boldy @ $7M feels about right to me.  Now if Boldy continues to evolve and grow as an NHL'r and he adds 5 G and 5 A to his point totals and he begins to take over shifts, which I think we'll see eventually, then $7M starts to looks like value but not yet IMO 

    Jake Guentzel, at 29 years old, just signed a deal with the TBL (I assume you must like their GM) for 7-year, $9M AAV, and he is putting up very similar production to Boldy. Who is only 22 and will absolutely continue to improve. 

    That contract is a bargain now and its only going to look better as time goes on. 

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    10 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Jake Guentzel, at 29 years old, just signed a deal with the TBL (I assume you must like their GM) for 7-year, $9M AAV, and he is putting up very similar production to Boldy. Who is only 22 and will absolutely continue to improve. 

    That contract is a bargain now and its only going to look better as time goes on. 

    Yes I do like TBL's GM.  Don't know who it is but year in and year out that roster is a murderer's row of difference making NHL'rs.  Not just the superstars, but more importantly the middle 6'rs (Cirelli, etc.)

    Re Guentzel, he's 29 and has a long resume of stepping up and delivering when the lights shine the brightest.  Hopefully Boldy can become that too.  But we all know he hasn't done that yet, with any consistency.  If anything your making me think $7M is an overpay at this point.

    Yah but just wait until Boldy.....I'm getting tired Marge.

    Edited by Pewterschmidt
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    Perhaps but his freebie-time should begin to run out sooner than later. Perhaps the Rossi trade rumors are an indication they plan to spend the money differently or that Heidt might be closer than originally expected. That would make Marco the most valuable asset the Wild have because he's going to be wanted. 

    I agree there's some similarities to previous draft pools and all that but MN has a good foundation. 2-4M contracts for proven NHLers aren't too hard to move or get out from under. 

    We've seen Bill do this before where he gives guys fair deals and time to get their game going. A few strikes and you're out. I don't think he'd hesitate to trade these older guys if necessary. This still seems like a pivotal year to me. I was disappointed in last year but not totally doom & gloom. If the same patterns develop this season and net positives aren't obvious, I'll get back to bashing Billy-blunders and cross-eyed crazy jokes.

    The draft and Trenin acquisition were both pretty good IMO so hard to complain on new stuff. Just the NoJo/Fred/Foligno stuff but the reality is MN couldn't do way better by a lot with that 10M. Maybe, but not super obviously when the deals were signed. My .02 cents.

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    I took a look at both the 03 team that went to the WCF and the Cup winning Blues and Kings teams.  Funny things I noticed.

    Highest point getters were 70-75 points, most other players were in the 40s-50s...so not really crazy offensive teams.

    They had goaltenders that were around .915-.930 save percentage...

    So, you CAN succeed without High powered offense up and down the lineup. After all, Kaprizov, Fiala, and Boldy at their best couldn't do it.  I'll trust the team's chances when their defense and goaltending is consistent...which it isn't right now.

     

     

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    2 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    trading 28 yr olds who are on back nine of career for 23 year olds who are about to break out

    I would argue that most 23 year olds don't actually break out.  Most are close to peaking at 23 and only improve a minuscule amount up to 25 years old.  This is where getting a 28 year old is better.  You know and understand exactly what you are getting and will probably get exactly what you pay for over the next 3 to 4 years.  Asking for more than they are capable of providing is folly.

    That being said, if you were to provide me a choice of taking a young guy that is slightly less capable yet substantially less money than the older player I would take the young guy.  I agree with 100% with your comment that a team can succeed without a high powered lineup.  To do that your players in the $4M to $6M range need to produce and you need more of them, which means you must sacrifice a little at the bottom of your lineup as long as they are disciplined at defense.

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    7 minutes ago, MNCountryLife said:

    I would argue that most 23 year olds don't actually break out.  Most are close to peaking at 23

    We'll agree to disagree on this one.  

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    7 minutes ago, MNCountryLife said:

    This is where getting a 28 year old is better.  You know and understand exactly what you are getting and will probably get exactly what you pay for over the next 3 to 4 years.

    I'll submit Fred Evason and Nojo to counter this one

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    11 hours ago, Patrick said:

    I think we will all be surprised by his production.

    I'll be surprised if he plays at least 72 games and doesn't tally 12+ goals.

    I wouldn't be shocked if he gets near 18 goals if the talent around him are Wild players who won jobs heading into the season and not AHL injury fill-ins.

    Hitting 20 assists might be tough for Trenin though.

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    17 minutes ago, MNCountryLife said:

    I would argue that most 23 year olds don't actually break out.  Most are close to peaking at 23 and only improve a minuscule amount up to 25 years old.  This is where getting a 28 year old is better.  You know and understand exactly what you are getting and will probably get exactly what you pay for over the next 3 to 4 years.  Asking for more than they are capable of providing is folly.

    Guentzel hadn't topped 48 points in an NHL season at age 23.

    McDavid had his best season at age 26.

    Eriksson Ek had not scored double digit goals in a season at age 23.

    Countless examples suggest you're on the wrong side of this one. There are certainly plenty of guys who don't advance their games a ton after age 23, but many guys do.

    Boldy is nearly a point per game guy at the beginning of a 7 year contract and could easily have some seasons up around 90 points in his prime.

    If Johansson didn't deliver him an ill-advised pass that got Boldy crushed against the boards early in the year, he might have hit 80 points last year. He missed time and was slow to return to form, but he had 61 points in his last 63 games in 23-24.

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    12 minutes ago, FredJohnson said:

    Fletcher did more damage to our prospect pool by trading for guys like Trenin.

    Agree 100%.  A compliment I'll give Guerin is that he's not trading draft picks for bottom 6'rs or flyers (Hanzel) the way Fletcher did.  Fletcher was recklessly negligent and that's why he's been fired from GM role twice at his relatively young age.

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    15 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    Countless examples suggest you're on the wrong side of this one. There are certainly plenty of guys who don't advance their games a ton after age 23, but many guys do.

    Maybe I phrased it poorly.  I wasn't saying that no player gets better after 23.  Just that there are many that don't.  I think it would be an interesting article.  What are the percentages of players that show improvements after 23 vs those that stagnate.  Having a roster full of hopefuls is unlikely to have an expected outcome.

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    1 hour ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Agree 100%.  A compliment I'll give Guerin is that he's not trading draft picks for bottom 6'rs or flyers (Hanzel) the way Fletcher did.  Fletcher was recklessly negligent and that's why he's been fired from GM role twice at his relatively young age.

    It's a low bar but a bar cleared no less. I like a few of the deals GMBG has done, but the bottom 6 forward management has been pretty bad.

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    On 7/11/2024 at 9:47 AM, Pewterschmidt said:

    Yes I do like TBL's GM.  Don't know who it is but year in and year out that roster is a murderer's row of difference making NHL'rs.  Not just the superstars, but more importantly the middle 6'rs (Cirelli, etc.)

    Re Guentzel, he's 29 and has a long resume of stepping up and delivering when the lights shine the brightest.  Hopefully Boldy can become that too.  But we all know he hasn't done that yet, with any consistency.  If anything your making me think $7M is an overpay at this point.

    Yah but just wait until Boldy.....I'm getting tired Marge.

    Boldy might not be there yet, but his contract is in line with other young players with his production.  Those contracts are based on an expectation that the player will continue to improve and that the production will outpace the contract value on similar production over it's duration.

    This I think is the reason why Guentzel was brought up.  He may show up a bit more when needed, but his production is similar.  Over the course of that contract, especially in the last few years of it, Boldy's contract and production should end up being far better - and the signing as a whole should be far better.  

    Roster management isn't only about a single season and it's not just about right now.  That's why signing a ton of splashy free agents until well into their late 30s to contracts that are 10% of the salary cap end up screwing over teams.  You may reap rewards briefly or maybe it doesn't work out well at all because that player only had that type of production because of who they are playing with or the system they were in.  This is the main reason to build most of your skill players through the draft and only grab players that fit the holes you are missing through free agency, minimizing the need and urge to grab a player that everyone wants and getting saddled with a contract that will be a boat anchor long term that will end up costing you depth.

    We are building depth and hoping Yurov does as well as he is hyped to and Wallstedt becomes an all star goalie.  We are also hoping that some of the rest will become players that can eventually overtake the lower end of the roster.  Building through the draft requires a bit of faith and having a ton of talent in the pool so that you can increase your odds that some of them will make the cut and turn out well enough.  It's a long process but it sets you up for long term success.  You need to be developing that next player, so if you lose a player or choose to move on from a player, you have the option in your hand to do so.

    People talk of the GMs of Vegas, Tampa Bay, etc, but those huge swings will cost them in the long run.  They will continue to give up all their picks and prospects to stay relevant and in a couple years will be where Pittsburgh is now, or to a much lesser extent, where the Wild were 7-8yrs ago, but because people have such short-sightedness and latch on to  every talking head with an ever shorter vision, they will blame all those problems on the new GMs.

    Edited by raithis
    Boldy was auto-corrected to Body. If Jesse Ventura is now on the team, then I'll join the Guerin-haters
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    Overall, Guerin has been somewhat polarizing. Personality and statements have ruffled feathers along with whatever perceived impropriety and rumors have been floated.

    At the same time, the contracts that are so detrimental have yet to play out and amount to like 15% of the cap between a number of guys. With the value deals Guerin has done and stocking-up on draft picks, MN is way better positioned to be a competitive team than before Guerin showed up. 

    I did not like the last few years of the Parise/Suter era. Staal scoring 40 goals was a highlight. Tuch swagger at development camp was encouraging. Ek was still getting a lot of doubt and Dubnyk let soft ones in whenever I went to a game plus most games on TV. 

    My opinion is that it's much much better now. Kaprizov and the Norwegian Hobbit, future Hall of Famer between thr pipes. Multiple prospects who really look promising. The Wild lost than and they've lost now but that's how it goes til it doesn't. FL and other teams have risen to the top rapidly. I don't claim MN will win the Western conference but I think they'll be back in the playoffs. 

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    On 7/11/2024 at 9:47 AM, Protec said:

    Marco the most valuable asset the Wild have because he's going to be wanted. 

    Rossi is the most valuable trade asset because he is the best player we have that we can actually move due to Billy locking up the mushy middle guys.  So Rossi becomes the fallout of bad signings. Compounding mistakes is not good management. 

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    1 hour ago, MacGyver said:

    Rossi is the most valuable trade asset because he is the best player we have that we can actually move due to Billy locking up the mushy middle guys.  So Rossi becomes the fallout of bad signings. Compounding mistakes is not good management. 

    That’s more a matter of perspective. Rossi wouldn’t be getting traded for cap space or depth guys. He’s the only asset with nice upside, ELC, proven NHL 20-goal guy. The Wild don’t HAVE to do anything but if yo wanna make a trade for an NHL top-six player, you have to trade one.

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    12 hours ago, Protec said:

    That’s more a matter of perspective. Rossi wouldn’t be getting traded for cap space or depth guys. He’s the only asset with nice upside, ELC, proven NHL 20-goal guy. The Wild don’t HAVE to do anything but if yo wanna make a trade for an NHL top-six player, you have to trade one.

    Sounds like the exact guy we need?? Rossi is not one of Billy's boys apparently. So the potential for a bad trade here is real. Billy deals in emotion. Who knows what we would get in return. If Billy really wants him out he's gone. Billy is just keeping his powder dry before he really screws this up. Stay tuned. 

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