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  • Guerin Needs To Pick Up the Phone If Teams Call About Fleury


    Image courtesy of Aaron Doster-USA TODAY Sports
    Justin Hein

    Listen, I’m not trying to say that a Day 2 draft pick is worth more than riding into the playoffs with Marc-Andre Fleury. The future Hall of Fame goalie is an NHL legend and a renowned personality that anybody would want on their team. Aside from that, it’s always better to sneak into the playoffs with a chance to make a deep run rather than lose a season to try to get better draft position. 

    On the other hand, trading Fleury makes a lot of sense – for the Wild and Fleury. 

    Fleury isn’t likely to perform at his legendary standard if Minnesota opens a competitive window next season or beyond. He’s 39 years old, performing below average in save percentage (ranked 45th) and goals-against average (34th). 

    Some of that is influenced by Minnesota’s questionable play in front of him this season, but the analytics that isolates goaltending from defense don’t indicate a turnaround. At five-on-five, Fleury is 22nd out of 64 goalies who have played 10 games in goals-saved above expected (GSAx). Statisticians designed that metric to credit goalies who save more high-danger chances. Worse yet, Fleury is 63rd out of 64 in GSAx on the penalty kill. 

    Fleury’s performance could suddenly decline as he nears 40, making him a risky bet to bring back as a free agent next year. Fleury and the Wild are on different timelines. Perhaps that wasn’t true at the start of this season. But due to a poor start and a rash of injuries, Minnesota is not in a position to give Fleury the season he deserves this late in his legendary career. 

    Minnesota must perform like a top-five team for the rest of this season to make the playoffs. Historically, that performance would earn the Wild the 8th seed and the right to play a seven-game series against the best team in the Western Conference. 

    On January 17, The Athletic predicted Minnesota had only a 28% chance to qualify for the playoffs. That was much higher than other analytical sites, partially because that model can adjust for the return of injured players like Kirill Kaprizov, Jonas Brodin, and Filip Gustavsson without punishing the team for the games it played without them. That was before news broke that captain Jared Spurgeon will get hip and back surgery and is out for the season.

    In the middle of January, Flower probably relishes the challenge of an uphill fight to get into the playoffs. But things could look different by the March 8 trade deadline. 

    It’s important to note that Fleury’s contract includes a no-trade clause (NTC), meaning he can veto a trade if he doesn’t like the destination. That could reduce Minnesota’s return. On the other hand, Fleury most likely wants to be traded to a contender, so the NTC may not be an obstacle. That’s entirely Fleury’s decision. 

    But if a deal makes sense for Fleury, why would it make sense for the Wild? The return likely wouldn’t be astounding. The Chicago Blackhawks traded Fleury to Minnesota for a conditional second-round pick in March 2022, which had the chance to turn into a first-rounder if Minnesota won two playoff rounds. Chicago also retained $3.5 million of salary. Two years older, it’s safe to assume that Fleury would net less than that return -- perhaps something like a third-round pick.

    That return isn’t worth it for Minnesota to blow up its goaltending tandem and endure months of tanking. It’s still not worth it if it gains the Wild a few slots worth of draft position. On the other hand, it may make a lot of sense for Minnesota’s goaltending tandem in 2024-25. 

    If the Wild dealt Fleury today, they could trade for a backup to replace him or call up Jesper Wallstedt, giving him a chance to earn the backup position. It would also allow the Wild to test Gustavsson with a heavier workload.

    Wild goaltending coach Freddy Chabot told The Athletic in the offseason that the team wanted to prepare Gustavsson to start more games. At the time, they likely thought that they were preparing him for a playoff run rather than to be the primary starter. But if the Wild miss the playoffs while rotating Gustavsson and Fleury, they won’t be able to evaluate that training. 

    Fifty games would be the benchmark if the Wild want to evaluate whether Gustavsson can be a true “starter” rather than just the 1A. That’s how many games the NHL’s 15th-ranked goaltender played last season. To reach that mark, Minnesota would need to start Gustavsson for 26 of their remaining 38 games, which would be about a 70% workload. That’s around a 56-start pace across an 82-game season.

    To get Gustavsson to 50 games, Minnesota would have only 12 more starts to split between Fleury and Wallstedt. Whether Wallstedt performs better than his nightmare debut in Dallas, it offers the club more insight into how ready their phenom prospect is to play at the NHL level. That will give the front office some foresight into who to put in net next year. It could also improve Wallstedt’s offseason training if he knows the strengths and weaknesses of his game at the NHL level. 

    From the Wild’s perspective, trading Fleury might be the only way to salvage value from a lost season. September extensions to Mats Zuccarello, Marcus Foligno, and Ryan Hartman eliminated Minnesota’s best trade chips. On the other hand, if the Wild suddenly go on a winning streak, they’ll have no reason to trade Fleury as they gear up for the playoffs. 

    Ultimately, two major factors will determine whether Fleury stays or goes: 

    1. Can the Wild sneak into the playoffs?
    2. Does Fleury want to play anywhere else? 

    The first will likely have a large impact on the second. 

    Everyone hopes that it never comes to this. Coming back from the dead to make the playoffs with a chip and a chair will always be better than nosediving for the right to pick a few spots earlier in the draft. More than that, though, Marc-Andre Fleury is the type of player fans want on their team. Executives also want him on their roster, and teammates want him in their locker room

    However, NHL teams must act in the best long-term interests of the franchise. Missing the playoffs with no pieces to sell at the deadline is a cardinal sin of sports asset management. 
    Even worse, to end Marc-Andre Fleury’s goal-post conversations and his career with a whimper would be a crime to the sport. Fleury should end this season with a chance to write history again, whether that’s in forest green or other colors. 

    It’s Bill Guerin’s job to ensure there’s an opportunity to make that happen by March 8. 

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    Counter-point:

    • Fleury considered retiring when he was traded from Las Vegas to Chicago.  Not because Chicago sucked, but he didn't want to uproot his family.  He ended up going to Chicago because of how he heard they treat their players.
    • BillyG has demonstrated that he wants to be a well-liked GM much more than a cut-throat one.  He openly stated he could have gotten a better return for Fiala, but didnt want to be seen as the guy who's going to rake you over the coals to make a deal, otherwise the phone stops ringing. BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.
    • If Flower asks him to be traded to PIT, BillyG is going to call up his old buddies, offer to retain 50% and ask for a bag of pucks in return.  BillyG might send along a 5th rounder  to PIT if they'll send back Crosby game used stick along with the bag of pucks.
    • Finally, it sounds like Fleury didn't want to start the game in Pittsburgh because it was going to be too emotional for him.

    Mark my words, but moving Flower at the TDL isnt going to return any reasonable asset, at least no where close to the 2nd (conditional 1st) we spent to acquire him.

    Edited by MrCheatachu
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    I think Fleury has been playing the best in a Wild sweater lately.  It should translate into a little higher value especially with the high demand for a goalies right now.  I would target a 2nd rd pick.

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    I think it depends utterly what Fleury wants. If he wants one last run, give it to him. It helps us tank marginally for a good draft pick, gives Gus a good workload and gets Jesper more prepared for the coming season. 

    This season is a write off. We are not playing to a level that we will make playoffs. Anyone arguing that can refer to us getting blown out by the Coyotes or the aging Lightning. We simply aren't good enough to make it far, even if we do squeak into playoffs by some miracle. 

    A smart GM is looking to next year and out into the future. As stated above, the extensions really kneecapped us recouping good draft capital at the deadline but it is still valuable to get more draft capital, even if we can't squeeze a 1st out of the guys we can sell. 

    Most of the guys we can sell are replacement level but still are valuable to improve the depth for a long run and with so many teams against the cap we could retain to get a better pick on any upcoming UFA's we do sell. 

    Replacement level guys are a dime a dozen in the offseason, we shouldn't have reservations about sending these guys to a contender.

    Billy might not be ready to wave a white flag, as it is not possible for him to do with Leipold breathing down his neck. He should be smart enough to see the forest for the trees though. 

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    Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

    It looks like there are 18 games post-TDL, with only 2 back-to-backs (though 3/8 is a BTB game.) If we're giving Wallstedt the 2nd night of those, that means he can only start another 4 of those 18 games down the stretch or it burns a year. 

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    43 minutes ago, MrCheatachu said:

    BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.

    I disagree with this. I think Shooter does take the calls, discusses compensation and then goes to Fleury with possible destinations if he wants to move at all. The reality is, does Fleury want to just retire after this season playing out the string, or does he want to make another epic playoff run? If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them. 

    I would think NJD would be one of the destinations since Brodeur played there. But, Carolina has a really good team too, and their goaltending is not very deep.

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    I think any calls you get inquiring you present to him, but ultimately it is up to him. This is how it should go for most anyone not named Faber, Kap, Boldy, Ek, Rossi, Brodin, Middleton and Goose2.  Perhaps some will waive ntc/nmc, perhaps not but it would be dumb to not entertain it.

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    4 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

    The Wall is 21 and his ELC has been ticking since last year. The only thing that matters is his rookie status for awards, and I think that is 25 games.

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    Quote

    It’s important to note that Fleury’s contract includes a no-trade clause (NTC), meaning he can veto a trade if he doesn’t like the destination. That could reduce Minnesota’s return. On the other hand, Fleury most likely wants to be traded to a contender, so the NTC may not be an obstacle. That’s entirely Fleury’s decision. 

    I know we tend to use these terms interchangeably but there is a slight difference. Fleury has an NMC, not full NTC according to capfriendly. But, your point remains, any trade has to go through the player.

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    32 minutes ago, MrCheatachu said:

    BillyG has demonstrated that he wants to be a well-liked GM much more than a cut-throat one.  He openly stated he could have gotten a better return for Fiala, but didnt want to be seen as the guy who's going to rake you over the coals to make a deal, otherwise the phone stops ringing. BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.

    Just another strike against him.

    His first priority should ALWAYS be the team. Others have said BG's deference in these situations will be returned. That's laughable. There's 32 of these jobs and the ones that have them want to keep them and none of them are going to give up value in hopes of getting it back someday, there going to maximize it and right fully so. The only one that apparently won't is BG. 

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    10 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

    The Wall is 21 and his ELC has been ticking since last year. The only thing that matters is his rookie status for awards, and I think that is 25 games.

    Well damn, looks like you're correct.

    Okay nevermind, trade MAF and ride this dude the rest of the season! 

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    28 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

    I disagree with this. I think Shooter does take the calls, discusses compensation and then goes to Fleury with possible destinations if he wants to move at all. The reality is, does Fleury want to just retire after this season playing out the string, or does he want to make another epic playoff run? If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them. 

    I would think NJD would be one of the destinations since Brodeur played there. But, Carolina has a really good team too, and their goaltending is not very deep.

    Fleury and Guerin played together in Pittsburgh, they hoisted a cup together in '09 after Guerin was a TDL acquisition by PIT.  To think they've not already had a conversation about where/what Fleury wants to do is ridiculous.

    The whole league has to know this about BillyG already, if he's going to trade Fleury, it is going to be because that's what Fleury asked for, not because that's what's best for the Wild organization.  Complete polar opposite of Kelly McCrimmon, who famously screws his players (sword through fleury's back, Dadanov trade, etc...)

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    26 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

    Others have said BG's deference in these situations will be returned. That's laughable.

    Once again i find myself agreeing with WTPB.  If anyone thinks GM's are 1) keeping a scoresheet of favors rec'd/favors owed 2) GM put one second thought into returning the favor owed, I'll argue these are the same chumbalone's who say "the refs are always out to get MN teams".  I feel sorry for the children of these people.  Those kids don't stand a chance.

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    14 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Once again i find myself agreeing with WTPB.  If anyone thinks GM's are 1) keeping a scoresheet of favors rec'd/favors owed 2) GM put one second thought into returning the favor owed, I'll argue these are the same chumbalone's who say "the refs are always out to get MN teams".  I feel sorry for the children of these people.  Those kids don't stand a chance.

    There's got to be some gray area though.  When Vegas was over the cap and desparately trying to dump Fleury, it was reported other GM's were literally laughing at McCrimmond and demanding multiple 1st round picks to pick up the salary because of how McCrimmond treated everyone in the expansion draft.  As you've pointed out, it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

    Multiple sources have reported players are wary about going to play for Vegas due to their treatment of players...running the team like a business and players treated as assets rather than humans.

    Has Guerin gone too far in the other direction?  Yeah...it's my opinion that he has.  It's possible to consider the human side, but the end goal must be to win hockey games not make a bunch of friends.

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    1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

    It looks like there are 18 games post-TDL, with only 2 back-to-backs (though 3/8 is a BTB game.) If we're giving Wallstedt the 2nd night of those, that means he can only start another 4 of those 18 games down the stretch or it burns a year. 

    At that point it doesn't really matter who is in net. Let Zane play backup. He is a really great guy (from my hometown) and there would be no pressure. Keep Wallstedt in the A to get as much net time as possible.

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    1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

    If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them.

    Colorado is being talked about also according to NHL Trade Rumors.

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    The Athletic predicted Minnesota had only a 28% chance to qualify for the playoffs.
    It's up to Flower once that number dips to maybe less than 20%. GMBG will ask him if and where he wants to go. Maybe Winnipeg or Montreal...Toronto?

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    17 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

    it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

    For sure! They won't NOT take advantage of each other. But they are careful to so so as you pointed out in the Knights example.

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    19 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

    To think they've not already had a conversation about where/what Fleury wants to do is ridiculous.

    I think you're right on this, and probably also with Goligoski. I also think they'll have it again as we fade further from the playoffs. 

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    18 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

    As you've pointed out, it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

    Multiple sources have reported players are wary about going to play for Vegas due to their treatment of players...running the team like a business and players treated as assets rather than humans.

    Has Guerin gone too far in the other direction?  Yeah...it's my opinion that he has.  It's possible to consider the human side, but the end goal must be to win hockey games not make a bunch of friends.

    I don't think that Guerin has gone too far. But there is something to be said about the McCrimmon way of doing things too. Mostly, GMs around the league do not remember how nice you were to them, but they do remember when you gouged them. Fletcher and Botteril were good friends and Fletcher bailed him out a couple of times. Yet, when Botteril was fired, all that goodwill went out the window with him. 

    I do think that Guerin has had to try and create relationships. I think he tried to do that last season by using his cap to help others out and not ask for the world in return. He's still a young GM, and you have to give to build those relationships, especially when more experienced GMs have several already built up. 

    He wants to be known as someone easy to do business with, and that takes time to build that reputation. For the Wild, mostly, because of the buyouts, they've had to shed cap, so he has been on the "losing" end of the deal. However, with the 3rd party cap last season, he was on the winning end and built several relationships (2 in each transaction) with guys he hadn't really done business with. 

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    20 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

    I think Fleury has been playing the best in a Wild sweater lately.  It should translate into a little higher value especially with the high demand for a goalies right now.  I would target a 2nd rd pick.

    I don’t see any way we get a 2nd.

    How we getting a 2nd  for a 39 year old sub .900 save percentage and an almost 3 goals against average goalie?

    those type of goalies are easy to acquire.

    the name no longer has any star power.

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    23 hours ago, Mateo3xm said:

    I don’t see any way we get a 2nd.

    How we getting a 2nd  for a 39 year old sub .900 save percentage and an almost 3 goals against average goalie?

    those type of goalies are easy to acquire.

    the name no longer has any star power.

    Maybe I've got rose colored glasses but I think he has over performed with a really poor defense in front of him.  

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    On 1/20/2024 at 8:57 AM, FredJohnson said:

    The Athletic predicted Minnesota had only a 28% chance to qualify for the playoffs.
    It's up to Flower once that number dips to maybe less than 20%. GMBG will ask him if and where he wants to go. Maybe Winnipeg or Montreal...Toronto?

    Updated rankings have MIN at 20% even after adjusting for Spurgeon, though that doesn't include players they can add w/ LTIR cap space. 

    https://theathletic.com/4938709/2024/01/22/nhl-playoffs-chances-projected-standings-chart/

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    22 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

    Maybe I've got rose colored glasses but I think he has over performed with a really poor defense in front of him.  

    I encourage you guys to check out MoneyPuck.com's goalies feature -- it's totally free. "Goals Saved Above Expected" does a good (though imperfect) job of isolating goaltending from defense. Fleury has been 3.1 goals above expected at 5v5 (expected = NHL average) so he's helping his defense. 

    The PK is where he's been getting killed -- 5 goals below expected this season. Some of the poor defense is likely not captured by this statistic. Fatigue on long penalty kills makes saves harder for goaltenders, and MoneyPuck does not adjust for that intangible. 

    https://moneypuck.com/goalies.htm

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    On 1/20/2024 at 11:31 AM, Mateo3xm said:

    I don’t see any way we get a 2nd.

    How we getting a 2nd  for a 39 year old sub .900 save percentage and an almost 3 goals against average goalie?

    those type of goalies are easy to acquire.

    the name no longer has any star power.

    Only takes one GM who wants to feel comfortable in his backup going into the playoffs. TOR is in a desperate situation, CAR has been "sizing up the goalie market all season" per Pierre Lebrun, EDM needs to maximize McDavid's window, and NJD are in a worse position than Toronto. If any of those teams decides this is their year, they may be willing to part with a late 2nd round pick. 

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