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  • Bill Guerin's Wild Are Chasing After Bad Bets With Extensions


    Image courtesy of Minnesota Wild Twitter (@mnwild)
    Tony Abbott

    In the opening scene of "Chasing It," the season six episode of The Sopranos, we see Tony Soprano celebrating winning a straight-up bet on a roulette spin. It's an incredibly long shot -- one-in-37 odds -- which gives "T" a massive rush. He pushes all his winnings back on 23, even as his capo Paulie Walnuts incredulously blurts out, "You f***ing kidding?"

    Eleven. Tony loses. And it's just the first bad bet of the episode as he spends the episode hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. 

    In addition to being a show about cool guys who do cool things, The Sopranos is about decay. The decay of the Mafia, and the decay of Tony's families. In the case of "Chasing It," the decay of Tony himself. After spending five years decrying and exploiting "degenerate gamblers," he can't stop gleefully shoveling good money after bad.

    The Minnesota Wild aren't in danger of cutting to black at the end of the year... or at least, as history suggests, not until the first round of the playoffs. But on Friday, Bill Guerin's Wild continued their habit of doubling down on veterans in their 30s. They locked in Mats Zuccarello to a two-year deal at a $4.125 million cap hit in the morning, followed by a four-year contract for Marcus Foligno carrying a $4 million AAV. It puts Minnesota at further risk of having some seasons about decay of their own in the near future.

    When the Wild first put their chips on No. 36 under then-general manager Paul Fenton, it seemed like a risky move. Still, they cashed in with a big win. Zuccarello picked up 218 points in 255 games through his first four years in Minnesota. Foligno's price on his last contract was a much better value bet, and it largely paid off for the first two years. Like Ton', Guerin had a chance to pick up his winnings and go home. Or at least, see how the year plays out before going all-in again.

    Now Minnesota's going to watch that wheel spin until Zuccarello's age-38 season and for Foligno's age-37 year. They might have hit those roulette bets before, but the odds of it happening again are slim. As Tony says late in the episode, "You start chasing it. And every time you get your hands around it, you fall further backwards."

    It might seem dramatic to assume a steep drop-off from Zuccarello after two seasons where he compiled 146 points in 148 games. But last season's 22 goals and 67 points hide small signs of decline that might evade your eyes at first glance.

    Zuccarello's 5-on-5 scoring dropped over one full point per hour from last year to this year. His 2.56 mark in 2021-22 tied for 33rd among 387 forwards with 500-plus minutes, and the 1.54 he had last year was 219th of 382. He went from Mark Stone-type production to hanging out with Nick Bjugstad. It represents the low mark for 5-on-5 scoring over his entire career. 

    Beyond the lack of 5-on-5 production, this past season was arguably the worst season of his career. Up until last year, Zuccarello gave his teams an average of 4.8 Standings Points Above Replacement (SPAR) per 82 games. That kind of play is easily worth $4.125 million. But 2022-23 was Zuccarello's worst showing in a full season, as he was worth only 1.2 SPAR. That's already not a very good return on investment, and Zuccarello's not even done with the $6 million AAV contract he's currently on.

    How does that look in two years, when he's 38 years old?

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    We already have to wonder if the bottom already fell out for Foligno. After scoring 45 goals and 93 points in 172 games over the past three seasons (a 21-goal, 44-point 82-game pace), the man they call "Moose" fell back to earth with a seven-goal, 21-point performance over 65 games. Part of it was injuries, but part of it was him ceasing to shoot 20%, as he did over the previous three seasons. At 8% shooting, the stats look much more underwhelming.

    Foligno's usually-sparkling SPAR (3.4 per 82 games before last season) took a huge step back last season. Foligno was worth only 0.5 SPAR last year, which trailed players in a similar role like Brandon Duhaime (1.1 SPAR), Mason Shaw (0.7), and 45 games of Jordan Greenway (0.6 SPAR). 

    You might expect a bounce back because of injuries, but the thing is, the risk of him getting hurt is probably not going away. Foligno plays a very hard brand of hockey that accumulates a physical toll. Of all the forwards in the Analytics Era, he's ninth in hits (2182) and tied for 39th in major penalties (usually: fighting majors) with 61. There aren't many players with that kind of mileage. The only other forwards to rack up 2000-plus hits with 50-plus majors since 2007-08 are Matt Martin, Chris Neil, Milan Lucic, Ryan Reaves, and Tom Wilson

    It's not a huge sample size, but go look at how things shook out for Neil, Lucic, and Reaves in their mid-30s. How willing would you be to make a $16 million bet that Foligno will buck that trend? Coming off a season that represents the lowest point of his value, no less!

    Things could be worse, though. The Wild could be looking to sign a third ill-advised contract giving term to a non-core player throughout their decline years.

    Oh, come on!

    All this leads to one fundamental question: What exactly are the Wild chasing? Zuccarello's been on the team for four years, and Foligno's been in St. Paul for six. We can throw Hartman into the mix, in case his extension breaks before this publishes, and that's four years all three have been together, and four playoff trips with this trio in tow.

    Minnesota's postseason record in those years? 8-15. Zero trips past the first round.

    But that's enough of a high, apparently, to double down on a core of 30-something forwards that haven't taken the Wild anywhere near where they need to go. Just in the past six months, the Wild gave Freddy Gaudreau five years (until his age-34 season), Marcus Johansson two years (through age-34), in addition to Zuccarello and Foligno, with Hartman (whose next contract kicks in at age-30) on-deck for an extension of his own.

    In past years, the Wild made these types of extensions (see: Jon Merrill, Alex Goligoski, and Marc-Andre Fleury) as a necessary evil to adapt to the squeeze of their Dead Cap Era. But these two (and soon three?) contracts kick in in a year where the Wild were slated to have $24 million in cap space. Why would Minnesota lock up all that flexibility a year before they had to? And for a term that goes well after the Zach Parise/Ryan Suter pain goes away?

    It's reminiscent of what Tony tells Carmela when trying to get her to loan him money to place a big bet on the New York Jets. "We can't get hurt," he rationalizes. "This is the gravy! Windfall cash. This is the kind of s*** you play with!"

    All of this coming when the Wild's true windfall, a plethora of talented forward prospects, are just about to come through the ranks. How is now the time to lock down four or five forward spots they could backfill in the next few years? Guerin insisted in a press conference on Friday that these moves won't block the next wave of prospects. It's a nice thought. But the fact is, those players are blocking prospects right now.

    Hartman is currently occupying a top-line center spot that Marco Rossi can't get a sniff at, even in a preseason game. Sammy Walker is 24 and coming off a season where he scored 27 goals and 48 points in 56 AHL contests. He's having a strong preseason, and yet, there's no room for him. The field doesn't get any less crowded once Marat Khusnutdinov, Danila Yurov, Liam Öhgren, and Co. come into the picture.

    Besides, if those players don't block their youngsters from top-six spots, is that much better? In that scenario, Minnesota ices an aging, expensive group of bottom-six forwards. Is that anywhere close to the best use of their resources, especially when Minnesota had been so good at finding those kinds of players off the scrap heap?

    It's clear that Guerin and the Wild love their guys, and a lot of fans do, too. It's easy to understand why. But when it comes to their veterans, they simply can't walk away, even if it means making a bad bet or five. Loyalty has ruined teams that have had greater success than Minnesota's group. Unfortunately, the Wild are pushing their chips in and committed to spin the wheel for the next several years, hoping they won't suffer from the decay they find themselves flirting with.

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    5 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

    the most competitive AHL roster they can field. 

    That's nice...but why put the geriatrics in the way of the youngsters? We're not winning a cup with the old guys. And their presence tells the young guys they got no shot at the big club for at least a couple years. Talk ability disappointing...mostly for the AHL guys.

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    On 9/30/2023 at 9:38 AM, joebou15 said:

    Another thing about this is the timing of it all. Why not let the season play out? Why not have a bit of roster flexibility up to the trade deadline? Why not see if last year was a mirage or the beginning of a trend? 

    I don't believe there was any pressure to sign these guys now. Russo says, "If they play well, they're only getting more expensive." And if they play themselves to a point they price themselves out of Minnesota, then good for then. Shake hands, thank them for the fish and part ways mutually.

    But no, get it done now...

    Bill Guerin is the king at signing extensions, for term and dollars, that didn't need to be signed at the time because there was zero pressure to do so.

    He plays the tough guy GM, but then plays soft with almost everyone over 30.

    It's really too bad that MF's and MZ's agents didn't go public before the signings so BG could've gotten pissed and traded them in a fit of anger.

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    On 9/30/2023 at 12:35 PM, Protec said:

    You can make the argument that the new contracts for #36 and #17 are too high or long but there isn't an automatic replacement for either guy that can perfectly step in as Kaprizov's buddy who scores 70+ points, or as glue-guy who hits, fights, and brings hardness to any line as comfortably as Foligno.

    I appreciate you're talking the rest of us off the ledge, but there is little chance Zuccarello or Foligno play like the guys that earned the confidence and loyalty of BG. There may not be ready replacements among the prospects for them, but the need to replace them is coming fast. Signing that much money and term away only makes fielding their replacements - whether prospects, free agents, or trade targets - that much harder. Everyone is keenly aware of how much a bad contract can handcuff a team. These aren't the boat anchor contracts of Parise and Suter, but they will more than likely still sting a great deal when it is all said and done.

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    3 hours ago, Velgey said:

    I appreciate you're talking the rest of us off the ledge, but there is little chance Zuccarello or Foligno play like the guys that earned the confidence and loyalty of BG. There may not be ready replacements among the prospects for them, but the need to replace them is coming fast. Signing that much money and term away only makes fielding their replacements - whether prospects, free agents, or trade targets - that much harder. Everyone is keenly aware of how much a bad contract can handcuff a team. These aren't the boat anchor contracts of Parise and Suter, but they will more than likely still sting a great deal when it is all said and done.

    i contend that the contracts are not good but the real problem is 2-3 old guys blocking advancement and development of younger guys. Old guys on the way down blocking young guys on the way up is a bad recipe.

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    Time will tell. Guerin's record so far has been to make deals or signings that initially are very polarizing or generally negative in reception amongst fans.

    After some time, the consensus becomes one where nit-picking is required to critique the calls to trade or sign a player. 

     

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    51 minutes ago, Protec said:

    Time will tell. Guerin's record so far has been to make deals or signings that initially are very polarizing or generally negative in reception amongst fans.

    After some time, the consensus becomes one where nit-picking is required to critique the calls to trade or sign a player. 

     

    None of those signing have been for that much $$$$$/Term though of a 30+ player who will be 39 years old when it's done?

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    On 9/30/2023 at 7:54 PM, TCMooch said:

    i can forgive the Zucc signing as maybe it makes Kap happy so he’ll resign here but the Foligno signing is straight up fucking terrible and stupid.

    Agree, but BG has done us right 10 to 1

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    I’ve mostly given Geurin the benefit of the doubt since he’s gotten despite not really accomplishing anything in terms of progressing us from the previous “regime” and making some truly head scratching decisions.

    Im out of patience.  Until he shows me something, I now believe he’s incompetent and needs to be fired.

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    19 hours ago, Up North Guy said:

    i contend that the contracts are not good but the real problem is 2-3 old guys blocking advancement and development of younger guys. Old guys on the way down blocking young guys on the way up is a bad recipe.

    The money tied up is not great, but you're right. The term for Foligno likely means someone gets iced out of joining the big club. That might not matter if they get traded away anyhow, but unless that's part of a package to address a key need for the team or to land a clear upgrade, that's mortgaging the future for a uncompetitive present. Still, if the prospects are going to elevate the Wild into a team competing for the Cup, they'll need to be able to outplay a Foligno with two or three more years of heavy mileage. If they can't do that, then they aren't the guys to take the Wild to the promised land.

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    49 minutes ago, Velgey said:

    The money tied up is not great, but you're right. The term for Foligno likely means someone gets iced out of joining the big club. That might not matter if they get traded away anyhow, but unless that's part of a package to address a key need for the team or to land a clear upgrade, that's mortgaging the future for a uncompetitive present. Still, if the prospects are going to elevate the Wild into a team competing for the Cup, they'll need to be able to outplay a Foligno with two or three more years of heavy mileage. If they can't do that, then they aren't the guys to take the Wild to the promised land.

    I’m totally guess Here but it looks like Guerin has setup a nice trade scenario for mid-season or the deadline. Firstov could be traded. Addison could get pumped up again with early season scoring. Hartman’s contract is the one I wanna see whether it have move protection. Not saying I’d like to see him traded but a new deal in place could make him more valuable to another GM. Duhaime could be moved along with Merrill later in the season if IA has some good options. Another thing is injuries but what if the Wild used some of the prospect pool for the deadline rental for the first time under Guerin? I don’t doubt whether he’ll tweak the roster by the deadline but he has yet to give up much capital. Is this the year he goes for that and sacrifices a good prospect for a team to hold back salary for a top tier rental? The Wild look like they are in win now mode. This is a win now group. If they’re healthy and get general improvement in a few areas, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be near the top of the Central and have a chance to win in the West.

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    22 minutes ago, Protec said:

    I’m totally guess Here but it looks like Guerin has setup a nice trade scenario for mid-season or the deadline. Firstov could be traded. Addison could get pumped up again with early season scoring. Hartman’s contract is the one I wanna see whether it have move protection. Not saying I’d like to see him traded but a new deal in place could make him more valuable to another GM. Duhaime could be moved along with Merrill later in the season if IA has some good options. Another thing is injuries but what if the Wild used some of the prospect pool for the deadline rental for the first time under Guerin? I don’t doubt whether he’ll tweak the roster by the deadline but he has yet to give up much capital. Is this the year he goes for that and sacrifices a good prospect for a team to hold back salary for a top tier rental? The Wild look like they are in win now mode. This is a win now group. If they’re healthy and get general improvement in a few areas, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be near the top of the Central and have a chance to win in the West.

    Firstov is an interesting project. He wasn't in for Army's regime in IA and left without much fanfare to the KHL. 

    He seems to be doing fine, but wonder if the kid has an attitude.  I have nothing,  but just reading the tea leaves.

    He gets a game misconduct and fine in the KHL for pushing an official.  Good luck getting a call the rest of the season. This could follow him back to the US.

    Any team investing in him may want to do a background check at the start of his hockey here at Waterloo Hawks, his college days at Connecticut and IA teammates as where there's smoke, there's fire.

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    There’s some teams and players who if they appear to be missing the playoffs could be a good fit for the Wild in a trade. Lindholm, B.Nelson, Perron, Stamkos, Boone Jenner, guys like that could be pretty nice to insert even if you lose a Duhaime or Addison + 2nd rounder. Or a 1st only. The Wild can do something like that now and it would be okay. The price might be really high but the Wild could make this kind of move now with their assets. Especially if they’re full on win now mode.

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    On 10/2/2023 at 10:09 AM, Up North Guy said:

    i contend that the contracts are not good but the real problem is 2-3 old guys blocking advancement and development of younger guys. Old guys on the way down blocking young guys on the way up is a bad recipe.

    The issue with this take is that the NHL is not the place for younger guys to develop. Most of that should be done in the AHL. And the Wild have had a vaunted prospect pool, but none of them are can't miss guys (except Jesper).

    I would have loved to see Foligno be a 2 or 3 year contract and then signed to a 35+ if they were going to keep him, but I still think there is room for the prospects to develop and hit the ground running when they are ready. Most of them will still be in their early 20's when these two contracts are off the books. And to be honest, at the end of the Foligno contract he could be a nice player to have as a 13th forward and put in when you need some size and veteran savvy. Now $4m is a bit expensive for a rotational player but it wouldn't be the end of the world. 

    If Billy G's timeline plays out the Wild will be competitive (let's hope that means getting past the first round) and then as these contracts are expiring they will have several 22/23 year old prospects ready to go. Putting them in earlier would hurt the NHL team, and put them in a place where they are figuring it out on their own. Let's not push our prospects in too early. As much as I cringed when I first saw the deals (especially MF's) I do think it gives us time to see what we have in our young guys and allow them to come up when the are ready. 

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    23 hours ago, PNW Wild said:

    The issue with this take is that the NHL is not the place for younger guys to develop. Most of that should be done in the AHL. And the Wild have had a vaunted prospect pool, but none of them are can't miss guys (except Jesper).

    I would have loved to see Foligno be a 2 or 3 year contract and then signed to a 35+ if they were going to keep him, but I still think there is room for the prospects to develop and hit the ground running when they are ready. Most of them will still be in their early 20's when these two contracts are off the books. And to be honest, at the end of the Foligno contract he could be a nice player to have as a 13th forward and put in when you need some size and veteran savvy. Now $4m is a bit expensive for a rotational player but it wouldn't be the end of the world. 

    If Billy G's timeline plays out the Wild will be competitive (let's hope that means getting past the first round) and then as these contracts are expiring they will have several 22/23 year old prospects ready to go. Putting them in earlier would hurt the NHL team, and put them in a place where they are figuring it out on their own. Let's not push our prospects in too early. As much as I cringed when I first saw the deals (especially MF's) I do think it gives us time to see what we have in our young guys and allow them to come up when the are ready. 

    I see and understand your point and it makes sense. But I disagree.

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    On 10/4/2023 at 12:35 PM, PNW Wild said:

    The issue with this take is that the NHL is not the place for younger guys to develop. Most of that should be done in the AHL. And the Wild have had a vaunted prospect pool, but none of them are can't miss guys (except Jesper).

    I would have loved to see Foligno be a 2 or 3 year contract and then signed to a 35+ if they were going to keep him, but I still think there is room for the prospects to develop and hit the ground running when they are ready. Most of them will still be in their early 20's when these two contracts are off the books. And to be honest, at the end of the Foligno contract he could be a nice player to have as a 13th forward and put in when you need some size and veteran savvy. Now $4m is a bit expensive for a rotational player but it wouldn't be the end of the world. 

    If Billy G's timeline plays out the Wild will be competitive (let's hope that means getting past the first round) and then as these contracts are expiring they will have several 22/23 year old prospects ready to go. Putting them in earlier would hurt the NHL team, and put them in a place where they are figuring it out on their own. Let's not push our prospects in too early. As much as I cringed when I first saw the deals (especially MF's) I do think it gives us time to see what we have in our young guys and allow them to come up when the are ready. 

    That cant be the case as Boldy had a very limited time in the AHL and mostly because of a minor injury. Faber never seen IA and I think you need to factor in prospects from the NCAA or KHL in this consideration. It changes the dynamics especially next  year.

    The KHL is probably the second best league in the world so guys that have come from there could/may step into our lines. NCAA prospects will be determined based off their draft level.

    CHL/WHL usually spend time in the AHL as they begin play there after age 20, still pretty young to crack NHL unless they are a top pick. The European players really depend on their route to the NHL whether it be the Canadian leagues or SHL/Finland/Germany. These may be the guys who get blocked, but we need room for the others (KHL/NCAA top picks).

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