Article: Perception Is Not Reality With Minnesota's Roster Flexibility

[mnfaninnc]

7 hours ago, Peter Lemonjello said:

How much would you have resigned Ek and Boldy for? Who would you have drafted the last 4 years?

They keep quoting evolving hockey on the salaries. I think their models are overvaluing players. My suspicion is that they would have followed that model, so, Boldy, Ek, Rossi get more, Hartman, Foligno, Trenin get less.

Also, there seems to be love for Gabriel Perrault among the staff, not sure about among the commenters. They keep referring to not picking him as controversial. None of the commenters seem to have this stance, or if they have, they've let it go. I believe more people wanted that up and coming center from Sweden, can't remember his name. 

I also suspect that we would have a team based solely on skill, and they'd collectively be about 6' 185 lbs. and be getting crushed all over the ice. The defenders would all be puck movers and be reviewed on points not on defense. There would be no large lines or large players, our PK would be worse than last year, but everyone would be talking about the PP and 5v5. The word "grit" would become extinct in the writing here. 

At least this seems to be the general consensus of the writers take. Maybe they would allow some bigger guys, but those guys would be 4th line/3rd pairing vet minimum guys.

[mnfaninnc]

6 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

The floor is set. Prospects gotta match it while showing a higher ceiling (which is a good thing!) to take the spot of a veteran contract.

I'd suggest the young kids have to do more than match it, they have to beat it for the vet to be moved on.

[mnfaninnc]

Regarding the buyouts, I think we went at least a year early on Suter, but if we don't do it when we did it, we would have exposed some pretty good players. 

Now, would Suter have taken a role down in the lineup, and could Evason have convinced him that 20 minutes a night was good enough? This is where I think the problem was going to be. In Dallas, the older guys accepted that their roles were diminishing as the other guys produced. The older guys filled in when there were injuries. 

With Parise and Suter, I don't think they do this. I think they pitch a fit for being lowered in the lineup. Probably more Suter than Parise. How do you strip those guys of letters? They needed to be. As for Parise, I don't think they would incur penalties with him. I think they would have rode out the contract with him on LTIR claiming the back injury has him not able to play anymore. Perhaps he's allergic to his stinky equipment ala Hossa? Maybe the dog mascot has him in hives, something like that has to hit.

Suter could still play. He would have to be moved down the lineup. He clearly hampered Spurgeon's year his final year. But, could he have played along side Faber? That might have been a decent pairing. But, could he have done it humbly? I doubt that very much and that's why he had to go.

I believe had he and Parise waived their NMC, neither would have been taken by Seattle. They weren't what Francis was looking for.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

19 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Guerin honored his trade request, but look at what he did for McBain: He found him a home and a way to burn the 1st year of a 2 year ELC. That was good for McBain, very good.

Sorry to be this guy but Guerin's glad handing and cowtowing to players whims has got us no where. Not a single discounted contract to be seen. We've paid top dollar and term on all our extensions for all Guerin's goodwill. 

I used to buy that Guerin was doing players favors with his moves but now I think he just gets rolled over when it comes to agents. He seems to do okay with other GMs but falls flat dealing with player agents. It is almost like he feels guys don't want to come here and that is an issue if that is his mindset. Whether it is true or not.

[Protec]

Guerin really only gave up an extra 500K and a year of term with these deals to guys who all delivered for MN.

If you look at that in context of what Ek could be worth, it's a wash. I.e. Ek allowed for the vets like Fred & Foligno to get rewarded. Hartman is being paid appropriately. Boldy's contract looks good. No really bad contracts. 

[mnfaninnc]

4 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

Sorry to be this guy but Guerin's glad handing and cowtowing to players whims has got us no where. Not a single discounted contract to be seen. We've paid top dollar and term on all our extensions for all Guerin's goodwill. 

Is it Guerin getting rolled, or is it Guerin making good on a handshake agreement? Only Goligoski's has come to light, but when he was signing guys for value on prove it deals, did he make some sort of promise to them that he'd take care of them during their next contract? 

I think this is a very likely scenario with the vets he signed. I think he was competing for the services of Trenin who Heinzy wanted. When these guys are traded out, he will have kept his word, and the players will have gotten a fair deal. 

If the players give him a home town discount, something I think Ek and Boldy did, and Faber is going to do, those aren't placeholders. Those are the core. Placeholders are gone as soon as their place is taken by a young guy. 

I've been thinking about the bulking up, and have been highly critical of the youngsters not bulking up. Finally, someone heard that message and acted, it was Marco Rossi. The difference was astounding. But here's the thing, every guy we drafted has a dream of playing in the NHL. I hope several of them have other dreams like lifting the Stanley Cup, which is fairly heavy. 

Could it be that the Wild have stressed nutrition and body building in their development camps but not gone too hard after the kids when they get to Iowa because they want them to be doing this on their own? Could they be treating them like men, hoping they will all make the correct decision? Is this part of the weeding out process? Do they give them a cup of coffee in the N, send them back down with them knowing what they need to do to be here full time and then see if they do it? This is a strategy, and is kind of Minnesotan. It's kind of a passive/aggressive approach to this one thing. 

Perhaps the kids wonder why they are not taken seriously? Did it occur to them that guys in charge are 6'4" 225 lb. guys who can handle themselves? They are not impressed by lightweight skill things and the next moment the guys laying on the ice because he can't take a hit. I was shocked to here that in lower levels of hockey they have banned checking. So many of these kids have no idea of how to slip a check, or even to look out for getting plowed. 

If you're going to play hockey the "right way," then checking is a big part of the game. Otherwise, you're just playing shinny hockey or in some spritzer non-contact league where Johansson wants to play. 

In training camp, I'm going to want to see some of these bottom 6 wannabes weighing in between 185-190 try to exert their will on some 6'3" 220 player. It will not be a good outcome unless you are Mason Shaw. I really hope to see Milne coming in around 205 and Lambos hitting camp around 210. This will get some front office attention. If they didn't take the time to work out hard this summer and thought sunshine was goof off time, then we won't see too many reinforcements. If they did, we might have some competition on our hands and training camp just got a lot more interesting.

[mnfaninnc]

2 hours ago, Protec said:

If you look at that in context of what Ek could be worth, it's a wash. I.e. Ek allowed for the vets like Fred & Foligno to get rewarded. Hartman is being paid appropriately.

Joel Eriksson Ek: The Ultimate Team Player!!!!

[1Brotherbill]

Reality is that these players in the minors are not good enough to play in the NHL right now.  If they turn out to be better than the ones in St. Paul they will play in St. Paul.  To think that they won't play if they are better than what we have on the team right now is ridiculous.  They all have pro contracts that will allow them to play in St. Paul. 

[FredJohnson]

the Wild may be forced to move them for pennies on the dollar because they’ve locked in a few replacement-level defensemen on long-term deals.

Why not trade the replacement-level players instead (even for "pennies on the dollar")?

[Will D. Ness]

On 7/20/2024 at 4:29 PM, Justin Wiggins said:

I agree McBain isn't a huge contributor. But he's also the perfect bottom-6 player with size the Wild paid $3.5M per year to Trenin for this summer because they didn't have such a player in their system. Paying premium dollar and term in free agency for a similar guy as the prospect you let leave isn't exactly the best use of their roster or cap space.

Do you think McBain is at Trenin's level?  I'm not so sure.

I think they should have a trial by combat this year to decide.  😀 

[Willy the poor boy]

16 hours ago, Protec said:

Ek allowed for the vets like Fred & Foligno to get rewarded.

The exact opposite of what it should be. Hartman was a guy that was called out by the Wild management this offseason. I thought that was bs too, because of what he did, how he played and the contracts value. To me, he gets it wrong a lot on things like that.

[Pewterschmidt]

2 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Do you think McBain is at Trenin's level?  I'm not so sure.

I think they should have a trial by combat this year to decide.  😀 

I will admit I'm not familiar with Trenin's game, but with all the hype (that's what happens this time of year) he better bring Claude Lemieux level tenacity or we're going to be disappointed.  I suspect McBain is more blunt object while Trenin is more chisel used as blunt object when necessary.  Either way I'm expecting little to no offense.  Which is fine as long as he's a honey badger without the puck.

#Milnewatch

Edited July 22 by Pewterschmidt

[Imyourhuckleberry]

On 7/21/2024 at 1:04 PM, TCMooch said:

I don’t think we have that many NHL ready prospects as we think. On defense I would say the only prospect that actually seems worth a damn right now is Zeev Buium. Rest of our defense prospects aren’t exactly knocking on the door and fringe or bottom pairing NHLers at this point

I wouldn't give up on Lambos possibly becoming a top 4 defender. He didn't have a strong 1st year in the AHL, but he had been very good in the WHL and he's only 21. Many defenders don't start coming into their own until after age 22. Certainly some top 10 picks are in the league before age 21, but that's not the standard.

[punch_cut]

On 7/20/2024 at 12:09 PM, Dean said:

Great article. I don’t think moving those extended vets is that easy. They have as much value as Dean does as a coach to the rest of the league. Zero. So you’ll be paying to move them . Something that didn’t need to be done by the gm is a future problem.  The other problem is these vets have proven they don’t help you go anywhere.  Just more excuses and mediocrity is what’s in store for the wild . 

With Dean thinking this article is right on confirmed what I thought originally.....it is terrible article. 

I love when people confirm they aren't very bright. You can see that with the value to the rest of the league statement that he always likes to go on about.

 

McBain didn't think he could beat out the other C's in the organization and said he wasn't going to sign. The GM got a 2nd round pick for McBain to get a month of playing time at the end of the year. That is a great return.

[Will D. Ness]

2 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

I wouldn't give up on Lambos possibly becoming a top 4 defender. He didn't have a strong 1st year in the AHL, but he had been very good in the WHL and he's only 21. Many defenders don't start coming into their own until after age 22. Certainly some top 10 picks are in the league before age 21, but that's not the standard.

I don't know what happened in Iowa but Lambos looked pretty good last training camp IMO.  I'm interested in seeing him in training camp this year.

[B1GKappa97]

On 7/21/2024 at 4:38 PM, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

 Not a single discounted contract to be seen. We've paid top dollar and term on all our extensions for all Guerin's goodwill. 

I used to buy that Guerin was doing players favors with his moves but now I think he just gets rolled over when it comes to agents. He seems to do okay with other GMs but falls flat dealing with player agents. It is almost like he feels guys don't want to come here and that is an issue if that is his mindset. Whether it is true or not.

Okay, sure. Eriksson Ek as a top-line C for $5.25M isn't a discount. Boldy for $7M (regarded as one of the top-10 contracts in the league by The Athletic recently) isn't one either.. I guess taking Fiala to arbitration and getting an 80+ point season for just $5M was a bad deal for us too.. 

Not to say every deal is a bargain, but the guy does considerably better in negotiating than you're giving him credit for. And I think its fairly obvious that he's also looking ahead and getting ahead of the curve before prices for the kind of players he's signing increases. 

Its always cheaper to sign guys a year earlier than a year later. Across every sport. Contracts only get bigger in sports, especially as the salary cap continues to rise. 

[raithis]

2 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

And I think its fairly obvious that he's also looking ahead and getting ahead of the curve before prices for the kind of players he's signing increases. 

Its always cheaper to sign guys a year earlier than a year later. Across every sport. Contracts only get bigger in sports, especially as the salary cap continues to rise. 

Exactly.  A GM isn't just looking at this year, but for years down the road as well.  And that isn't just for roster spots.  It's also for the financial structure of the team's contracts.

I think people are so used to the salary cap being stagnant that they have forgotten that it will very likely keep going up.  Players haven't seen it go up in a while so some are trying to get a piece of that and many GMs can't seem to help themselves during Free Agency so they are handing out larger contracts to some players that put less points on the board.  The fact that we aren't diving too deep in Free Agency much is going to help us in the long run, and a lot of these contracts will be less in proportion to the salary cap down the road, which helps us fit them in under the cap and helps us trade them at the TDL if a prospect is ready or we identify that real difference maker who can take us to the next level and need the space to trade or sign that player.