Article: Perception Is Not Reality With Minnesota's Roster Flexibility

[Justin Wiggins]

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[Patrick]

Serviceable veterans on moderate contracts are easy to move.  This is mostly fear mongering.  The only way it becomes a "problem" is if ALL of the prospects develop into NHL players.  Great problem to have and the same could be said about every NHL club.  Am I a fan of the extensions? No. Do they block prospects. Also no. 

[Burnt Toast]

It’s hard to make sense of what the Wild are up to without being inside the room (or heads) of management. I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re looking 5-6 years down the road if not more. These aren’t uninformed brain dead decision makers, they’re lifelong NHLers. Sure it kinda looks dumb what has been happening lately, puzzling to say the least. I’m still holding on to my last scape of hope (20+ years of wear and tear) and spending it on this next group of prospects (best ever). Overall I think this team’s near future looks better than it has in a long time. 

[Protec]

I wouldn’t say MN refused to make a place for Jack McBain. College guys can do that. I really can’t blame a guy for taking an offer in ARI and getting straight into the NHL. Kinda screwed the Wild but if I were in his shoes, would it be a smart career move to join a better club with a GM who wants young guys to really earn it? 
 

The Wild are in a good position. Here’s why. This season will give the players and organization fair time to succeed on the ice and in assessing the situation. By Christmas and especially the deadline, MN will know what they’ve got at the NHL level. Rossi, Ogie, and Knudi will all have had the opportunity to show up. Lauko, Clarke, Walker, Fred, NoJo, Gus, Wallstedt will get a chance to prove what’s up. At that point in the big picture, Guerin will be in a nice position. There’s assets and value to work with in a playoff/non-playoff scenario. 
 

I believe MN will at that point see the future clearer with Yurov or Wallstedt sending a strong message. Guerin can at that point make a decision about where to allocate AAV and what the team needs most. At that point a salary dump sending a veteran before playoffs or a prospect and pick going to add a complimentary player won’t be difficult. Maybe even a big-splasher if MN moved Spurge or Knudi/Rossi to get bigger/heavier?

I think that’s what’s gonna happen around the times we see Buium, Heidt, Lorenz, Stramel, etc. and where they’d fit long-term. Other questions about Boeser staying in Vancouver or not and is Trent Frederic staying in Boston? Pius Suter will be a free agent again. Verhaeghe, Jeannot, Kolesar, Raddysh, Vatrano, there’s gonna be more UFA options if MN holds onto prospects and picks. Of course Raantennen, Draisaitl, Crosby will be UFAs too but not likely for MN.

Not too shabby IMO. Lot of doom’n is just unnecessary.

[Citizen Strife]

"The Wild didn't give 5-6 roster spots to new rookies all at once.  They are a terrible franchise that won't win now or ever."

You know what can also be true?  The Wild management has looked at all of those prospects and thought, "Eh, they might be something someday, but we're not seeing it yet, if ever."  Anyone who the team thinks will amount to anything will push past the players locked in this year anyway.  Took Rossi an extra season to become the good Marco Rossi.  The season before?  Mojo, Gaudreau, Hartman: they all played better.  They gave Rossi the boot to the AHL, and THEN he got good.  Shit like that happens.

You don't hand out NHL spots to just anyone.  A lot can be blamed on injuries.  And sure, MAYBE you should cut bait before injuries happen.  So what, you should put Spurgeon in bubble wrap and never play him again because he had one bad season?  Should the Wild not pay Foligno or Hartman in the risk they hurt themselves sneezing or putting out the garbage?  Gadreau's contract was signed before he got trucked.  How were they supposed to know?

If the players who play are any good, the Wild will play them and find out if they are better than what is available.  We've seen Rossi and Faber do it.  But we've also seen Beckman, Walker, Addison, etc. either do nothing or next to nothing with their roster callups (regardless of where the team played them).  Outplay the people in front of you, contract be damned, or stay stuck behind them.  The Wild team doesn't owe any player anything.  

I remember something people would say about WWE and other wrestling shows.  They would never say guaranteeing you a spot or telling you what you'd be.  They'd call it, "Giving you an opportunity."  That's all these are: opportunities.  The team knows better than anyone if the players deserve that opportunity.  The best the team can hope for is any and all of those players to amount to anything better than the Hartmans/Folignos/etc.  They have time and money to make that decision.  Not belching out free rides like some teams do seems like some condemnation of failure.

Well, Addison did twice in one season...but whatever.

[Will D. Ness]

I'm glad McBain forced a trade.  It was a blessing in disguise as Hunter Haight is looking really good... much higher upside than McBain.

McBain is finally turning into an effective grinder after looking like a fool out there for his first 2 years.  Did the Wild miss out?  Did they misplay their hand?

Kinda but not really.  McBain wasn't in a position to demand anything and trading him worked out.  He seems like an entitled little douche you don't want on a team anyways.

Also, lets keep this in perspective... he wasn't as good as Bjugstad.

 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

A 15 team no trade clause generally means that you are only trading with playoff teams, which are exactly the teams that want to trade for veteran players to help them, so I don't think the no trade clauses will be that detrimental. Guerin isn't planning on sending his veterans to cellar dwelling teams and those teams aren't looking to add those veterans either.

McBain also had a pretty clear path to the NHL as the Wild were desperate for center help at the time. His choice to get traded doesn't seem like a big issue.

[Dean]

Great article. I don’t think moving those extended vets is that easy. They have as much value as Dean does as a coach to the rest of the league. Zero. So you’ll be paying to move them . Something that didn’t need to be done by the gm is a future problem.  The other problem is these vets have proven they don’t help you go anywhere.  Just more excuses and mediocrity is what’s in store for the wild . 

[Lovehockey]

Very good article.

couple points to add.

1. McBain just one example. Let’s see what will happen with Yurov. He could be playing for Wild this year and he choose not to. My understanding is he is not coming for any type of development camps
2. Somebody mentioned 3-4 years plans. If this is the case I can bet the money that Kaprizov will not sigh with Wild. 
3. I mentioned this before - with roster as it is Wild not even close to be a deep playoff team. And if this correct then BG doing all of this the wrong 

4. nobody mentioned anything in the comments about defense or goaltending. Are we letting prospects playing these positions?

I would not be disappointed if I am wrong but I am afraid I am right 😀

 

 

[Peter Lemonjello]

3 hours ago, Patrick said:

Serviceable veterans on moderate contracts are easy to move.  This is mostly fear mongering.  The only way it becomes a "problem" is if ALL of the prospects develop into NHL players.  Great problem to have and the same could be said about every NHL club.  Am I a fan of the extensions? No. Do they block prospects. Also no. 

Totally agree with you. The writer is is being melodramatic.

The Wild had no problem making room for Faber. 

[Peter Lemonjello]

"We’ve seen it before when the Wild refused to create an NHL path for Jack McBain. They granted his trade request"

Is that the same McBain that is playing on the 4th line of one of the worst teams in the NHL?

So you are suggesting that the Wild's top prospects will start requesting trades because the Wld didnt guarantee spot with the bib boys? 

[Krotz the Wall]

I’m not particularly concerned about whether or not the Wild use some of their prospects as part of trades. The idea is to ultimately ice the best team possible, not always hang on to potential. The problem with the number of deals for functional bottom 6 type players is that almost all of those contracts are long and not great value. In isolation, it would be easy to trade a Foligno, Trenin, Middleton, Hartman, etc. at the deadline to a playoff team. In reality, those teams rarely take on a deadline deal for a role player with 2+ seasons remaining on their deals. Guerin has also shown no indication that he would make the decision to move those kind of players.

The lack of flexibility because of term on contracts that do not represent bargains, is the primary challenge. With Faber’s impending extension, and the hope that Kap wants to take a big contract extension from the Wild, the lack of real flexibility, on a team bad enough that they should be maximizing flexibility, is going to impact what the team can try to do. 

[Justin Wiggins]

4 hours ago, Peter Lemonjello said:

"We’ve seen it before when the Wild refused to create an NHL path for Jack McBain. They granted his trade request"

Is that the same McBain that is playing on the 4th line of one of the worst teams in the NHL?

So you are suggesting that the Wild's top prospects will start requesting trades because the Wld didnt guarantee spot with the bib boys? 

I agree McBain isn't a huge contributor. But he's also the perfect bottom-6 player with size the Wild paid $3.5M per year to Trenin for this summer because they didn't have such a player in their system. Paying premium dollar and term in free agency for a similar guy as the prospect you let leave isn't exactly the best use of their roster or cap space.

[mnfaninnc]

3 hours ago, Justin Wiggins said:

I agree McBain isn't a huge contributor. But he's also the perfect bottom-6 player with size the Wild paid $3.5M per year to Trenin for this summer because they didn't have such a player in their system. Paying premium dollar and term in free agency for a similar guy as the prospect you let leave isn't exactly the best use of their roster or cap space.

The problem with this is that McBain had leverage. He and Guerin, and maybe Nesterenko sat down for dinner in Boston one night. As a side interest, I'm pretty sure Guerin knows his way around Boston and probably took them to a nice place if the NCAA would let him. 

He likely laid out the plan for McBain's career at that meeting. Please also notice that Nesterenko was traded before we signed him as a throw in somewhere. McBain had a lot of confidence and had a really nice year. But, he could have just not signed and gone to free agency that summer. 

Guerin honored his trade request, but look at what he did for McBain: He found him a home and a way to burn the 1st year of a 2 year ELC. That was good for McBain, very good.

I think McBain could have helped us a lot, but it would require a stint in the A. At 10% of an NHL salary, this was not enticing to McBain. Also notice, he usually scores against us.

 

[mnfaninnc]

I think this is another article calling out fire. There's no need for this. For those who think it's tough to move a guy with trade protection, well, GMs are supposed to do tough things. Guerin signed these guys to more market value deals so that the players wouldn't get screwed when it was time to move them.

These players know full well that when they are passed on the depth chart, they will be moved. Their protection shows that they will have some say in where they go. Most of these guys around the last couple of years of their deal have M-NTCs. NYR already showed us how to get those off the books.

I think the problem people have is that they are expecting something in return for these guys. Don't! They are placeholders. They know they are placeholders. We won't have to bribe someone to take them, but we won't get much back either, besides the roster spot.

And, if the player thinks they have much trade protection, with an M-NTC, Guerin can send them to Iowa. Iowa cannot be on their list. To get there, Guerin would have to waive them and then every team gets a shot at them. This is not in the player's best interest to go this route, but if the spot is needed, they either comply with Guerin, conveniently get hurt, or head to Iowa. If they are waived, I believe there are 5 NHL rosters who would claim them. These 5 rosters are likely to be on their M-NTC. 

Sure, Goligoski didn't go. What happened to him? Scratched for most of the season. In fact, he was scratched so much, I thought he'd already gone to Grand Rapids and hung up the skates. There are other ways to make NMCs not happy about their position. I don't think Goligoski was bagged the whole time, but going through that 3 times or more a week will get a player hating life. Suddenly, that NMC doesn't seem so important. 

All of these guys are movable. Even Zuccarello. Trouble is, nobody has clearly taken their spot and that should be the focus of these articles. Where are the draft picks? Why aren't they here yet? What do they need to do to prove themselves?

Of course, my suggestion is bulk up, get an NHL body. That 1 thing will get you taken seriously in training camp.

[Peter Lemonjello]

13 hours ago, Justin Wiggins said:

I agree McBain isn't a huge contributor. But he's also the perfect bottom-6 player with size the Wild paid $3.5M per year to Trenin for this summer because they didn't have such a player in their system. Paying premium dollar and term in free agency for a similar guy as the prospect you let leave isn't exactly the best use of their roster or cap space.

What do you mean let leave? He chose to leave because GMBG told him he's not just giving him a spot in the lineup.  Are you suggesting they should just start giving spots to prospects without earning them? 

It seems like all the articles on here have been fixated on hartman, moose, etc.. contracts. 

I'll but my faith in the guy with 4 Stanley Cup rings over the people with a resume that consist of sitting behind a keyboard and writing articles criticizing the current GM.

Would love an article from any of you on how you would have done things. Like, would you have made room for Fiala? Would you been able to get KK over here and what would his 2nd contract looked like after he threaten to go back to Russia. Who would you replaced Moose and Hartman with if you didnt resign them? How much would you have resigned Ek and Boldy for? Who would you have drafted the last 4 years? How would you handled the Suter and Parise contracts? Would you have bought them out? Maybe just Parise? If you didnt buy Parise out, what contracts would you be dumping this year since you would be having massive recapture penalties with Parise retiring. 

[Peter Lemonjello]

9 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

I think this is another article calling out fire. There's no need for this. For those who think it's tough to move a guy with trade protection, well, GMs are supposed to do tough things. Guerin signed these guys to more market value deals so that the players wouldn't get screwed when it was time to move them.

These players know full well that when they are passed on the depth chart, they will be moved. Their protection shows that they will have some say in where they go. Most of these guys around the last couple of years of their deal have M-NTCs. NYR already showed us how to get those off the books.

I think the problem people have is that they are expecting something in return for these guys. Don't! They are placeholders. They know they are placeholders. We won't have to bribe someone to take them, but we won't get much back either, besides the roster spot.

And, if the player thinks they have much trade protection, with an M-NTC, Guerin can send them to Iowa. Iowa cannot be on their list. To get there, Guerin would have to waive them and then every team gets a shot at them. This is not in the player's best interest to go this route, but if the spot is needed, they either comply with Guerin, conveniently get hurt, or head to Iowa. If they are waived, I believe there are 5 NHL rosters who would claim them. These 5 rosters are likely to be on their M-NTC. 

Sure, Goligoski didn't go. What happened to him? Scratched for most of the season. In fact, he was scratched so much, I thought he'd already gone to Grand Rapids and hung up the skates. There are other ways to make NMCs not happy about their position. I don't think Goligoski was bagged the whole time, but going through that 3 times or more a week will get a player hating life. Suddenly, that NMC doesn't seem so important. 

All of these guys are movable. Even Zuccarello. Trouble is, nobody has clearly taken their spot and that should be the focus of these articles. Where are the draft picks? Why aren't they here yet? What do they need to do to prove themselves?

Of course, my suggestion is bulk up, get an NHL body. That 1 thing will get you taken seriously in training camp.

"I think this is another article calling out fire. There's no need for this."

Well said.

[Brian Trusinsky]

No move clauses are the only problem with which they couldn't overcome, except sitting them in the pres box. Some of the contracts a partial no trade lists and increasing so as their contracts age from on year to the next. "Won't agree to the trade? Fine, I'm sure San Jose or Ottawa would like you via waivers..." I think there's a huge chance JoJo agrees to a trade this fall or is waived. Sends a good message to the room if their play isn't up to par. IMO, our top prospects will have room if it's certain they're ready.

[B1GKappa97]

22 hours ago, Patrick said:

Serviceable veterans on moderate contracts are easy to move.  This is mostly fear mongering.  The only way it becomes a "problem" is if ALL of the prospects develop into NHL players.  Great problem to have and the same could be said about every NHL club.  Am I a fan of the extensions? No. Do they block prospects. Also no. 

I thought it has been pretty obvious that a lot of those extensions give current and future prospects a chance to develop into an internal replacement candidate for that player while providing an excellent litmus test. 

The floor is set. Prospects gotta match it while showing a higher ceiling (which is a good thing!) to take the spot of a veteran contract. And then Billy will find a way to move it a la Greenway. 

They are, at most, a 15-team no trade list if I'm remembering the contracts right.

They're moveable when the time comes. 

Edited July 21 by B1GKappa97

[LittleBallofHate]

Honestly (opposite from the mainstream opinion) I would have just bought Suter out. On the D-man eye-test; I kept seeing a slow-as-molasses dude "blue chip D-man" getting beat around the corner constantly. He lost enough step that he could never pinch on our power play to hold possession. He loved getting caught in no-man's/slow-man's land & lo-&-behold he is flat-footed when fatso Dustin Byfuglien looks like a cheetah breezing right past him for the breakaway goal...on our fricken power play. But, yeah, he could certainly log those 30 minute + games... just sandbagging away. I'm pretty sure Dallas finally saw his little energy conserving antics too. It was pretty costly to them as well when he threw out the "Suter special" in the playoffs & delay-of-game flung the puck out of play. The fans & media were watching a different Dman than I was, when they thought Suter still had more to give.

Of the 2, at least the puck badger still could forecheck, he was still approaching 20 goals on a team that was still primarily defense first. He was still pretty useful as a more grinder role on some other teams.

...Honestly, I still don't get the whole: Buyout Parise, but Suter is still playing well. Suter was getting fricken putrid for the top-bill defensemen on our team.

[Peter Lemonjello]

11 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

The problem with this is that McBain had leverage. He and Guerin, and maybe Nesterenko sat down for dinner in Boston one night. As a side interest, I'm pretty sure Guerin knows his way around Boston and probably took them to a nice place if the NCAA would let him. 

He likely laid out the plan for McBain's career at that meeting. Please also notice that Nesterenko was traded before we signed him as a throw in somewhere. McBain had a lot of confidence and had a really nice year. But, he could have just not signed and gone to free agency that summer. 

Guerin honored his trade request, but look at what he did for McBain: He found him a home and a way to burn the 1st year of a 2 year ELC. That was good for McBain, very good.

I think McBain could have helped us a lot, but it would require a stint in the A. At 10% of an NHL salary, this was not enticing to McBain. Also notice, he usually scores against us.

 

The author of this article also fails to mention when GMBG was able to get in a trade for a prospect that didnt want to play for the Wild.

[Peter Lemonjello]

35 minutes ago, LittleBallofHate said:

Honestly (opposite from the mainstream opinion) I would have just bought Suter out. On the D-man eye-test; I kept seeing a slow-as-molasses dude "blue chip D-man" getting beat around the corner constantly. He lost enough step that he could never pinch on our power play to hold possession. He loved getting caught in no-man's/slow-man's land & lo-&-behold he is flat-footed when fatso Dustin Byfuglien looks like a cheetah breezing right past him for the breakaway goal...on our fricken power play. But, yeah, he could certainly log those 30 minute + games... just sandbagging away. I'm pretty sure Dallas finally saw his little energy conserving antics too. It was pretty costly to them as well when he threw out the "Suter special" in the playoffs & delay-of-game flung the puck out of play. The fans & media were watching a different Dman than I was, when they thought Suter still had more to give.

Of the 2, at least the puck badger still could forecheck, he was still approaching 20 goals on a team that was still primarily defense first. He was still pretty useful as a more grinder role on some other teams.

...Honestly, I still don't get the whole: Buyout Parise, but Suter is still playing well. Suter was getting fricken putrid for the top-bill defensemen on our team.

I could be wrong but I think with Parise retiring this year, the Wild would have had a $13ml cap recapture penalty. If they werent prepared for that, it would have created a huge problem.

[Peter Lemonjello]

21 hours ago, Lovehockey said:

Very good article.

couple points to add.

1. McBain just one example. Let’s see what will happen with Yurov. He could be playing for Wild this year and he choose not to. My understanding is he is not coming for any type of development camps
2. Somebody mentioned 3-4 years plans. If this is the case I can bet the money that Kaprizov will not sigh with Wild. 
3. I mentioned this before - with roster as it is Wild not even close to be a deep playoff team. And if this correct then BG doing all of this the wrong 

4. nobody mentioned anything in the comments about defense or goaltending. Are we letting prospects playing these positions?

I would not be disappointed if I am wrong but I am afraid I am right 😀

 

 

"Let’s see what will happen with Yurov. He could be playing for Wild this year and he choose not to"

Yurov wanted unattainable bonuses added to his contract. Even though they are unattainable, the Wild have to count them against the cap which they cant afford to do"

[LittleBallofHate]

2 hours ago, Peter Lemonjello said:

I could be wrong but I think with Parise retiring this year, the Wild would have had a $13ml cap recapture penalty. If they werent prepared for that, it would have created a huge problem.

Oh, for sure. But, without a crystal ball, based on eye-test at the time, I felt that Parise would have been the better one to keep had only one of them been bought out. Sure, his playstyle was getting him beat up & he was double shifting too much. Most common consensus was saying people thought Suter was still valuable...

But even then, when he was "better Suter" there were a bunch of slow problems popping up, getting beat 1v1 frequently when he is supposed to be a top-pair shutdown guy at the time... Then all the freakn untimely pucks airmailed out of our own zone to put the other guys on the power play, often times another symptom of slowness... because you know, he couldn't skate it out, he just was lauded for his stretch passes constantly... otherwise he was too slow, pressured, & airmailed it away.

[TCMooch]

I don’t think we have that many NHL ready prospects as we think. On defense I would say the only prospect that actually seems worth a damn right now is Zeev Buium. Rest of our defense prospects aren’t exactly knocking on the door and fringe or bottom pairing NHLers at this point