Article: Konsta Helenius Can Fill Joel Eriksson Ek's Vacated Third-Line Role

[Tony Abbott]

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[Citizen Strife]

If Helenius ends up the best player available, fuck it.  Having positional versatility can be a boon, especially if a team like the Wild end up dealing with more injuries like this year.  I would prefer defense (Yakemchuk) or wingers (Eiserman/NB/Greentree), but if all the best defenseman are gone, I'd rather not hitch my wagon to a one legged man in Jiricek.  Helenius sounds like a guy who could go anywhere from 8-15, so it's not a bad deal.

Some of these centers have to go to wing if they make the team anyway...you'd think.

[FredJohnson]

1 hour ago, Citizen Strife said:

Having positional versatility can be a boon

What happened to positionless hockey? Did Creed Bratton a.k.a. Deano take it with him?

[Protec]

Seems like a good pick. 5'11" isn't bad. Success in the top Finnish league is good on his resume. The Wild have plenty of elite Swedes, getting kinda heavy on Russians, so a Finn kinda gives MN some improved diversity. 

[mnfaninnc]

He's an RHS, that's what caught my attention. He just turned 18 11 days ago, but he's 181 lbs. He needs 20 lbs. of muscle.

I don't hate this idea, but I'd rather identify someone a bit stronger who can help like Lindstrom. Yes, it would cost us but I think it would be worth it. It's time to start coming to the players instead of selecting those who come to you.

So, on the premise of the article, I thought I'd throw this out there. Reading a Canes rumor about them being unsatisfied with Kotkaniemi and may buy him out (the 1/3rd rule). It would save them $20m. If the Canes cut him loose, Shooter should jump on that right away as the #3 center replacement. In fact, trading for Kotkaniemi wouldn't be a bad idea if Carolina retained $1m of the contract each year. That would be a pretty savvy price for a #3C who could help us now. 

This is not unreasonable, to think. Buying him out is $800+k a year for about 12 years. $1m retained is only for 6 years, so it's like a win-win. Kotkaniemi can learn behind Ek. We'd probably only have to give up peanuts to do it. I believe we'd have 2 #3Cs in Dino and Kotkaniemi. But you'd play them differently, depending if you need speed or if you need size.

Remember when Brodziak couldn't handle the speed of the Avs and Yeo made the adjustment to elevate Haula to 3rd C? That worked, but Brodziak still was a quality bottom 6 C. We lost him the next year, a move I thought hurt the team. 

Waddell has a lot of business to do this offseason. Many of his top players are UFAs. Taking Kotkaniemi off his hands probably helps him resign someone. And that solves Tony's premise at the top, replacing Ek as the 3rd line C.

[Sviginak]

Will we go BPA or BDPA is the question. Depends on if some of the D prospects show some progress signs most of us haven’t heard about. Or maybe Chisolm is expected to take a step up. Who knows, this guy seems to have potential and we all like players that can score big goals. 

[viper3119]

10 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

He just turned 18 11 days ago, but he's 181 lbs. He needs 20 lbs. of muscle.

Seriously MNfan you need to learn a bit about how bodies generally mature and grow.  You're expecting these teenagers to be fully grown and be the same size as full time NHL players in there mid 20s is gettting old.

[Patrick]

Centers have higher value.  From a prospect building standpoint there is more value in drafting a center. Of course position doesn't matter if they don't succeed but it's the one position where having "too many" isn't really a negative.

[mnfaninnc]

1 hour ago, viper3119 said:

Seriously MNfan you need to learn a bit about how bodies generally mature and grow.  You're expecting these teenagers to be fully grown and be the same size as full time NHL players in there mid 20s is gettting old.

Viper, I see what you're getting at, and I'm not saying that this has to happen by tomorrow. I'm projecting out what his NHL body will need to look like, and the general time frame for that is 3-5 years. 

So, when I say he needs 20 lbs., I'm projecting out what work he'll need to do in the gym. To date, our prospects have had a hard time committing to gym work. This has pushed their timeline out and even questioned if they can make it. 

For instance, Beckman should be 210 today. He rejected the bulking up idea thinking he had enough talent. He's still in the 190s at 6'2". We have similar things happening with Lambos, Spacek, Masters and probably even S. Johansson. O'Rourke has been a wasted pick because he can't seem to find his gym membership. 

I fully realize that these guys will need time to fill out and get there, and I realize it won't be tomorrow. But, the team is looking at a kid like Heidt, who is feisty, making the team at 5'11" 183. That's simply too light! One reason prospects typically take 5 years is for their bodies to fill out. Coming into the league at 22-23 years old is typical. 

So, my point to Helenius' measurements is that he's got to be willing to pay the price in the gym, just like Ek and Rossi did. If he's willing, then that's great, but we've got to weed out those who are unwilling. 

On another subject, I was truly happy when we took O'Rourke. He was exactly the type of mean defender we lacked and needed. I thought he lucked out spending an underaged year in the A and had improved the 2nd half of the season. Then he went back to jr. and lost pretty much all momentum. It has been very disappointing to see his lack of commitment to build himself into the physical presence he needs to be to play the game the way he wants to. It's been fireable, in my opinion, for our strength and conditioning coaches in Iowa to let him not bulk up. Simply put, this should have been demanded of him, and if he refuses, trade him out.

Also, for comparison, Lindstrom is already 6'3-4" 216 lbs. So he will be ready to go sooner. I thought we were trying to get the guys here sooner so Kaprizov could see we were going to win here?

Edited May 23 by mnfaninnc

[Tony Abbott]

21 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

For instance, Beckman should be 210 today. He rejected the bulking up idea thinking he had enough talent. He's still in the 190s at 6'2". We have similar things happening with Lambos, Spacek, Masters and probably even S. Johansson. O'Rourke has been a wasted pick because he can't seem to find his gym membership. 

You have no idea on any of this. This is all conjecture. 

[mnfaninnc]

25 minutes ago, Tony Abbott said:

You have no idea on any of this. This is all conjecture. 

Do you have a better idea of why Beckman isn't at 210? Why does the team that's in Iowa not bulk up at all? 

I'll cede the point that listed measurements sometimes differ from real, but when you look at them on the ice (when they're called up), they look weak and light. When you see them in the corners, this is confirmed. 

Conjecture or not, why is it that our team that trains in Iowa is underweight for what's needed in the N? 

Disclaimer: While a great deal of information can be obtained on the internet, the best answers will come from eyes on the team which means being in market. Seeing these guys in public, on a golf course, at events will help a fan gauge if they're putting in the work. I don't have access to that out of market. However, I can look at the Twins lineup and discover that their guys are larger than the Wild. I wouldn't think that this would be the case.

Edited May 23 by mnfaninnc

[Citizen Strife]

You know, small guys and big guys both get injured.  Small guys and big guys can be goal scorers.  Small guys and big guys can be quality players.  Small guys and big guys can both be all stars or NHL depth.  If a player is better than a certain player at something, they earn their spot.  All about skillsets and mindsets.  

I mean, you don't REALLY know what a player is going to do with a team when he's picked with them.  For all the faults of a "smallish center with upside," 60-70 point seasons are still 60-70 pt seasons.  You get that from Rossi, AND Helenius (or Khusnutdinov/Heidt/etc), then fuck it.  They can be 5'4" for all I care.  

I'm all for having a monster on skates on D (Silayev), but if he turns out to be Logan Stanley, then all he's good for is injuring star players.  Kinda hard to do your job if you're...not doing your job.

[Citizen Strife]

Also, say for instance all Helenius ends up being is Granlund, similar points and all.  The same Granlund who would be Top 5 in points for this team with what he did on a dogshit San Jose team.  Those are 60 more points that would replace a Dewar (20 pts), Letteri (10 pts), or even a Khustnutdinov (4 pts in 16, equating to about 15-20 pts).  

And, I'm sure there's plenty more Granlund did that isn't on the score sheet.  All I'm saying is if you told me we can get a Granlund for free to replace what we have now, I'd not scoff at that for a second.

Even Granlund at that full $5m price tag isn't such a bad thing considering some of the non-starters the team has dealt with as 3rd/4th liners recently.

Edited May 23 by Citizen Strife

[Will D. Ness]

Law of diminishing returns applies to size vs speed.  I think what MNCfan is getting at is we have too much speed and not enough size.  Yeah, it's a point that has reached saturation here but it isn't conjecture.  It is a problem and the root cause of why we are even considering trading Rossi.  

I think playoff hockey exemplifies the need for size.  The margins found in the physical play seem to overweigh (no pun) the margins found for speed.  It seems the regular season is a little different and a little looser and the margins found for speed are more effective.

The Wild have many talented, fast, but smaller players mostly due to the fact that we have drafted later in the 1st round and haven't had the ability to draft the "whole package".  It also seems we haven't really focused on size outside last years draft.

Now Beckman is a guy who has the frame to optimize size and speed but for whatever reason, he has neglected doing so.  Just think how much more valuable he would be if he could actually win a battle on the boards in the NHL. 

[Citizen Strife]

Think what Beckman could be if he actually scored...Ohgren got as many points in a third of the games he played, and seems to be tilting the ice a bit more.  Such is life.

For a guy who was reportedly a great shot, it never seemed to manifest in actual NHL games.  That's the fear with someone like Eiserman, all shot no soul; though, picking Eiserman at 1st 13, and Beckman at 3rd 75 is a different magnitude.  Eiserman bombing like Beckman has would be a huge swing and a miss.  But at least it'd be a swing.

Edited May 23 by Citizen Strife

[Dango]

When the Wild were playing the hawks in playoffs  they would do an ok job defending on the speedy skill guys  but then a less talented more physical guy would break through and make a scoring play , when you watch the Wild play Dallas or St  Louis  in playoffs  they got   smothered ,  maybe its the dump and chase style that requires more size  .  dont know   .  

[Pewterschmidt]

2 hours ago, Tony Abbott said:

You have no idea on any of this. This is all conjecture. 

Someone had to say this.  I'm all for conjecture on a fan page but when statements are made from a perspective that your on the Wild staff it becomes less meaningful.

Here's my conjecture on Beckman having seen him now play a handful of games with the big club:

1) he's clearly too light.  And when I saw him on a becoming wild episode I thought he looked like a skeleton.  His body/frame might not be built to ever get thick, as they say.

2) he's 400 grit sandpaper, while the league requires 0-60.  This is a guy that Dallas scouts pre-draft and says "we like his offense, but do you notice he always avoids contact/scrums.  Red flag!  He's either scared, weak, lacks mental toughness, doesn't have the heart to throw himself into situations for the better of the team (the anti Stanky leg), or all of the above.  We'll pass"

3) He and Walker will make a nice living in the Euro Trash No Check league into their 30's.

[Pewterschmidt]

1 hour ago, Will D. Ness said:

It is a problem and the root cause of why we are even considering trading Rossi.

I've stated that Guerin&Co considering trading Rossi is an admission of failure, I might do a 180 on that.  Maybe Guerin's position would be "hey Pewter, we drafted Rossi as BPA even though we knew we needed to get bigger, now he's shown the league that he can produce, now we intend to trade him for a player who we think will be as good (and as big) as Lundell.....and now i've talked myself into thinking trading Rossi is an admission of failure.

#backtoback

Edited May 23 by Pewterschmidt

[Tony Abbott]

4 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Do you have a better idea of why Beckman isn't at 210? Why does the team that's in Iowa not bulk up at all? 

I'll cede the point that listed measurements sometimes differ from real, but when you look at them on the ice (when they're called up), they look weak and light. When you see them in the corners, this is confirmed. 

Conjecture or not, why is it that our team that trains in Iowa is underweight for what's needed in the N? 

Disclaimer: While a great deal of information can be obtained on the internet, the best answers will come from eyes on the team which means being in market. Seeing these guys in public, on a golf course, at events will help a fan gauge if they're putting in the work. I don't have access to that out of market. However, I can look at the Twins lineup and discover that their guys are larger than the Wild. I wouldn't think that this would be the case.

You have zero idea what Beckman (or anyone's) ideal playing weight is. How did you arrive at 210 pounds for Beckman? Because it seems like you pulled it out of thin air. He's listed at 182 on NHL.com, let's assume that's correct (though it's 193 on AHL.com? IDK): You want him to gain 30 pounds? Do you know if that's going to sacrifice his speed and flexibility? Is he going to be able to skate at an NHL level after bulking up. I'll admit that I don't know -- but neither do you.

Same goes for Lambos, O'Rourke, Spacek, Masters, whoever. Do you not think that these players aren't on their own strength training programs? Ones made by professionals who have knowledge of what both the organization's goals are for them, but enough information about their playing ability and their bodies to create a hyper-specialized plan to improve? These players almost certainly have their own fitness goals to hit, and the team has way more resources than a height/weight chart to measure progress.

We would also absolutely hear about it if these guys were slacking off on their training. We know Alexander Khovanov's Starbucks order (Caramel/extra whip). Russo talks about how the team wanted Jesper Wallstedt's conditioning to improve, that he made strides this year, but needs to further improve. If these guys weren't committed to the gym, especially on an institutional level, we'd hear about it.

I know I'm going in hard on this, but it's kind of crappy to say Beckman/O'Rourke/whoever isn't an NHL player because they're not working hard enough in the gym based on basically nothing. Maybe if the team moves on from them, we'll find out that was part of the story. But maybe they're not NHL guys. Shit happens. Lots of dudes in the second and third round become career AHLers. 

[Tony Abbott]

4 hours ago, Citizen Strife said:

Also, say for instance all Helenius ends up being is Granlund, similar points and all.  The same Granlund who would be Top 5 in points for this team with what he did on a dogshit San Jose team.  Those are 60 more points that would replace a Dewar (20 pts), Letteri (10 pts), or even a Khustnutdinov (4 pts in 16, equating to about 15-20 pts).  

And, I'm sure there's plenty more Granlund did that isn't on the score sheet.  All I'm saying is if you told me we can get a Granlund for free to replace what we have now, I'd not scoff at that for a second.

Even Granlund at that full $5m price tag isn't such a bad thing considering some of the non-starters the team has dealt with as 3rd/4th liners recently.

Yeah, if Helenius is Granlund that's a great pick at 13 and a great career for anyone. 

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, Citizen Strife said:

Even Granlund at that full $5m price tag isn't such a bad thing considering some of the non-starters the team has dealt with as 3rd/4th liners recently.

Close to the deadline, I wanted Granny back. I still have that same thought. He is short but pretty thick. I liked his production and he'd be an upgrade from Johansson. I've seen him with his lower center of gravity win board battles. If Helenius is going to work in the gym, and get to that weight, I'm fine with the pick, but you've got to know now whether or not he is willing, that was simply my point.

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Law of diminishing returns applies to size vs speed.  I think what MNCfan is getting at is we have too much speed and not enough size.  Yeah, it's a point that has reached saturation here but it isn't conjecture.  It is a problem and the root cause of why we are even considering trading Rossi.

Yes, exactly. As a team, we are too small, out of balance small. This needs to be fixed. To be read, not too short, but too light.

[mnfaninnc]

1 hour ago, Tony Abbott said:

You have zero idea what Beckman (or anyone's) ideal playing weight is. How did you arrive at 210 pounds for Beckman? Because it seems like you pulled it out of thin air. He's listed at 182 on NHL.com, let's assume that's correct (though it's 193 on AHL.com? IDK): You want him to gain 30 pounds? Do you know if that's going to sacrifice his speed and flexibility? Is he going to be able to skate at an NHL level after bulking up. I'll admit that I don't know -- but neither do you.

Same goes for Lambos, O'Rourke, Spacek, Masters, whoever. Do you not think that these players aren't on their own strength training programs? Ones made by professionals who have knowledge of what both the organization's goals are for them, but enough information about their playing ability and their bodies to create a hyper-specialized plan to improve? These players almost certainly have their own fitness goals to hit, and the team has way more resources than a height/weight chart to measure progress.

We would also absolutely hear about it if these guys were slacking off on their training. We know Alexander Khovanov's Starbucks order (Caramel/extra whip). Russo talks about how the team wanted Jesper Wallstedt's conditioning to improve, that he made strides this year, but needs to further improve. If these guys weren't committed to the gym, especially on an institutional level, we'd hear about it.

I know I'm going in hard on this, but it's kind of crappy to say Beckman/O'Rourke/whoever isn't an NHL player because they're not working hard enough in the gym based on basically nothing. Maybe if the team moves on from them, we'll find out that was part of the story. But maybe they're not NHL guys. Shit happens. Lots of dudes in the second and third round become career AHLers. 

Tony, I'm not a trainer, but it's not exactly out of thin air either. If you look at height/weight ratios of the successful NHL players, you'll find a range of weight for each height. Of course, there are outliers. 

Spurgeon is an outlier, he has had the ability to play about 20 lbs. lighter than he should, but was effective. Necas has a similar height to Beckman, and is listed at 189. IMO, he's still too light and needs to also get to 210, but his blazing speed makes him very effective. But, for Kalisha to suggest he was a big body, that was just flat out fraud. Same can be said for Pettersson, and we saw him get bounced around in the playoffs mainly because he's too light. 

But, let's look at some other examples. Look at how Ek took it upon himself to bulk up. It took 2 offseasons and he became an elite 3rd center because he had the strength to go with his height. Look at how Rossi did the same last year, finally caving in and putting weight back on. It was absolutely evident to any objective eye that this weight gain was the paramount reason for his success this year. And, for the record, I do not consider him small. 

Some guys are trying to play at the NHL level at 180 and around 6'. They simply do not have the strength or leverage to win board battles, something you'd think you'd need if you were going to play perimeter hockey. And, as a team, we have too many of those guys. 

O'Rourke is a special case. His style of play is rugged. He loves to hit. He cannot effectively play that style at 190. He has to have weight on him to be effective. And this is not for dishing out hits, this is just for surviving, fending off checks and being able to take the beating of 82 games + playoffs. 

Also, look at how good Ohgren looked. He's a gym rat. People bounced off of him. This is good news for a guy like that. Dino might be a guy who can play a little lighter, but he's still tenacious. 

So, someone's got to ask: Why are our guys so much lighter than other teams? Is it the water? Is it the players? Is it a non-commitment to the gym? Is it more conditioning than strength? (this one I feel is a yes). Is it that the organization does not emphasize the need to it's players to have size? 

Now we move on from conjecture to a body of evidence that suggests something isn't right. I don't know if it's coaching, if it's management, if it's the players, or if it's a statistical anomaly that we've drafted players who just can't add weight? Sometimes I wish I had that anomaly!

To compete in the playoffs, our guys are going to have to be bigger and stronger than they are. We can't have a bunch of smurfs playing against these giants, especially if you want a gritty team. There could be 2 or 3 smaller guys, but that's the maximum. Pick the 3 you want. 

I'm not advocating for a team of giants either. That also would be out of balance. I think you need about 6 of those guys on your squad and a couple more you can call up. 

Now, the height weight numbers I believe in would be this:

• 5'10" 190-195
• 5'11" 195-200 a tick higher if they're aggressive
• 6' 200-205
• 6'1" 205-210
• 6'2" 210-215
• 6'3" 215-220

The weight suggest a certain strength level and gives the player enough stability to throw a hit (not a bomb) and fend off a hit. It allows them to dig into the boards. It helps them stay healthier with nagging stuff. It allows them to hit the home plate area without being abused. 

[B1GKappa97]

Helenius at #13 is our worst-case scenario. So that's good. 

I'm hoping that either Eiserman, Catton (highly doubtful 😞) or Yakemchuk are still there, personally, but Helenius would be a good pick if they aren't. Not exciting, but not terrible either. 

A 3rd line of Ohgren-Helenius-Hartman would be pretty sneaky good. 

[Mateo3xm]

On 5/22/2024 at 8:30 PM, mnfaninnc said:

He's an RHS, that's what caught my attention. He just turned 18 11 days ago, but he's 181 lbs. He needs 20 lbs. of muscle.

I don't hate this idea, but I'd rather identify someone a bit stronger who can help like Lindstrom. Yes, it would cost us but I think it would be worth it. It's time to start coming to the players instead of selecting those who come to you.

So, on the premise of the article, I thought I'd throw this out there. Reading a Canes rumor about them being unsatisfied with Kotkaniemi and may buy him out (the 1/3rd rule). It would save them $20m. If the Canes cut him loose, Shooter should jump on that right away as the #3 center replacement. In fact, trading for Kotkaniemi wouldn't be a bad idea if Carolina retained $1m of the contract each year. That would be a pretty savvy price for a #3C who could help us now. 

This is not unreasonable, to think. Buying him out is $800+k a year for about 12 years. $1m retained is only for 6 years, so it's like a win-win. Kotkaniemi can learn behind Ek. We'd probably only have to give up peanuts to do it. I believe we'd have 2 #3Cs in Dino and Kotkaniemi. But you'd play them differently, depending if you need speed or if you need size.

Remember when Brodziak couldn't handle the speed of the Avs and Yeo made the adjustment to elevate Haula to 3rd C? That worked, but Brodziak still was a quality bottom 6 C. We lost him the next year, a move I thought hurt the team. 

Waddell has a lot of business to do this offseason. Many of his top players are UFAs. Taking Kotkaniemi off his hands probably helps him resign someone. And that solves Tony's premise at the top, replacing Ek as the 3rd line C.

It may sound like a bad idea to some but I’m actually open to the idea to give him a fresh start. He was doing very well for a stretch of time then just fell off. 
maybe a change of scenery will help him.