Article: Guerin Needs To Pick Up the Phone If Teams Call About Fleury

[Justin Hein]

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[MrCheatachu]

Counter-point:

• Fleury considered retiring when he was traded from Las Vegas to Chicago.  Not because Chicago sucked, but he didn't want to uproot his family.  He ended up going to Chicago because of how he heard they treat their players.
• BillyG has demonstrated that he wants to be a well-liked GM much more than a cut-throat one.  He openly stated he could have gotten a better return for Fiala, but didnt want to be seen as the guy who's going to rake you over the coals to make a deal, otherwise the phone stops ringing. BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.
• If Flower asks him to be traded to PIT, BillyG is going to call up his old buddies, offer to retain 50% and ask for a bag of pucks in return.  BillyG might send along a 5th rounder  to PIT if they'll send back Crosby game used stick along with the bag of pucks.
• Finally, it sounds like Fleury didn't want to start the game in Pittsburgh because it was going to be too emotional for him.

Mark my words, but moving Flower at the TDL isnt going to return any reasonable asset, at least no where close to the 2nd (conditional 1st) we spent to acquire him.

Edited January 19 by MrCheatachu

[Will D. Ness]

I think Fleury has been playing the best in a Wild sweater lately.  It should translate into a little higher value especially with the high demand for a goalies right now.  I would target a 2nd rd pick.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

I think it depends utterly what Fleury wants. If he wants one last run, give it to him. It helps us tank marginally for a good draft pick, gives Gus a good workload and gets Jesper more prepared for the coming season. 

This season is a write off. We are not playing to a level that we will make playoffs. Anyone arguing that can refer to us getting blown out by the Coyotes or the aging Lightning. We simply aren't good enough to make it far, even if we do squeak into playoffs by some miracle. 

A smart GM is looking to next year and out into the future. As stated above, the extensions really kneecapped us recouping good draft capital at the deadline but it is still valuable to get more draft capital, even if we can't squeeze a 1st out of the guys we can sell. 

Most of the guys we can sell are replacement level but still are valuable to improve the depth for a long run and with so many teams against the cap we could retain to get a better pick on any upcoming UFA's we do sell. 

Replacement level guys are a dime a dozen in the offseason, we shouldn't have reservations about sending these guys to a contender.

Billy might not be ready to wave a white flag, as it is not possible for him to do with Leipold breathing down his neck. He should be smart enough to see the forest for the trees though. 

[B1GKappa97]

Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

It looks like there are 18 games post-TDL, with only 2 back-to-backs (though 3/8 is a BTB game.) If we're giving Wallstedt the 2nd night of those, that means he can only start another 4 of those 18 games down the stretch or it burns a year. 

[mnfaninnc]

43 minutes ago, MrCheatachu said:

BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.

I disagree with this. I think Shooter does take the calls, discusses compensation and then goes to Fleury with possible destinations if he wants to move at all. The reality is, does Fleury want to just retire after this season playing out the string, or does he want to make another epic playoff run? If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them. 

I would think NJD would be one of the destinations since Brodeur played there. But, Carolina has a really good team too, and their goaltending is not very deep.

[IllicitFive]

I think any calls you get inquiring you present to him, but ultimately it is up to him. This is how it should go for most anyone not named Faber, Kap, Boldy, Ek, Rossi, Brodin, Middleton and Goose2.  Perhaps some will waive ntc/nmc, perhaps not but it would be dumb to not entertain it.

[mnfaninnc]

4 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

The Wall is 21 and his ELC has been ticking since last year. The only thing that matters is his rookie status for awards, and I think that is 25 games.

[mnfaninnc]

Quote

It’s important to note that Fleury’s contract includes a no-trade clause (NTC), meaning he can veto a trade if he doesn’t like the destination. That could reduce Minnesota’s return. On the other hand, Fleury most likely wants to be traded to a contender, so the NTC may not be an obstacle. That’s entirely Fleury’s decision. 

I know we tend to use these terms interchangeably but there is a slight difference. Fleury has an NMC, not full NTC according to capfriendly. But, your point remains, any trade has to go through the player.

[Willy the poor boy]

32 minutes ago, MrCheatachu said:

BillyG has demonstrated that he wants to be a well-liked GM much more than a cut-throat one.  He openly stated he could have gotten a better return for Fiala, but didnt want to be seen as the guy who's going to rake you over the coals to make a deal, otherwise the phone stops ringing. BillyG aint going to ask Fleury to waive, it's going to have to be Fleury asking BillyG to make the move.

Just another strike against him.

His first priority should ALWAYS be the team. Others have said BG's deference in these situations will be returned. That's laughable. There's 32 of these jobs and the ones that have them want to keep them and none of them are going to give up value in hopes of getting it back someday, there going to maximize it and right fully so. The only one that apparently won't is BG. 

[B1GKappa97]

10 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

The Wall is 21 and his ELC has been ticking since last year. The only thing that matters is his rookie status for awards, and I think that is 25 games.

Well damn, looks like you're correct.

Okay nevermind, trade MAF and ride this dude the rest of the season! 

[MrCheatachu]

28 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I disagree with this. I think Shooter does take the calls, discusses compensation and then goes to Fleury with possible destinations if he wants to move at all. The reality is, does Fleury want to just retire after this season playing out the string, or does he want to make another epic playoff run? If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them. 

I would think NJD would be one of the destinations since Brodeur played there. But, Carolina has a really good team too, and their goaltending is not very deep.

Fleury and Guerin played together in Pittsburgh, they hoisted a cup together in '09 after Guerin was a TDL acquisition by PIT.  To think they've not already had a conversation about where/what Fleury wants to do is ridiculous.

The whole league has to know this about BillyG already, if he's going to trade Fleury, it is going to be because that's what Fleury asked for, not because that's what's best for the Wild organization.  Complete polar opposite of Kelly McCrimmon, who famously screws his players (sword through fleury's back, Dadanov trade, etc...)

[Pewterschmidt]

26 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

Others have said BG's deference in these situations will be returned. That's laughable.

Once again i find myself agreeing with WTPB.  If anyone thinks GM's are 1) keeping a scoresheet of favors rec'd/favors owed 2) GM put one second thought into returning the favor owed, I'll argue these are the same chumbalone's who say "the refs are always out to get MN teams".  I feel sorry for the children of these people.  Those kids don't stand a chance.

[Justin Hein]

41 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

Based on a quick online search, it seems this rule does not apply to Wallstedt because he was 20 on Sept 15 2023. Source: https://puckpedia.com/entry-level-slides

[MrCheatachu]

14 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

Once again i find myself agreeing with WTPB.  If anyone thinks GM's are 1) keeping a scoresheet of favors rec'd/favors owed 2) GM put one second thought into returning the favor owed, I'll argue these are the same chumbalone's who say "the refs are always out to get MN teams".  I feel sorry for the children of these people.  Those kids don't stand a chance.

There's got to be some gray area though.  When Vegas was over the cap and desparately trying to dump Fleury, it was reported other GM's were literally laughing at McCrimmond and demanding multiple 1st round picks to pick up the salary because of how McCrimmond treated everyone in the expansion draft.  As you've pointed out, it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

Multiple sources have reported players are wary about going to play for Vegas due to their treatment of players...running the team like a business and players treated as assets rather than humans.

Has Guerin gone too far in the other direction?  Yeah...it's my opinion that he has.  It's possible to consider the human side, but the end goal must be to win hockey games not make a bunch of friends.

[Up North Guy]

1 hour ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Don't ride Wallstedt too much this year. Its, what, 9 games to have his ELC kick in this year instead of moving down another season? 

It looks like there are 18 games post-TDL, with only 2 back-to-backs (though 3/8 is a BTB game.) If we're giving Wallstedt the 2nd night of those, that means he can only start another 4 of those 18 games down the stretch or it burns a year. 

At that point it doesn't really matter who is in net. Let Zane play backup. He is a really great guy (from my hometown) and there would be no pressure. Keep Wallstedt in the A to get as much net time as possible.

[Up North Guy]

1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

If he wants the latter, he will listen to who wants him, and there are some really good contending teams that need goaltending help. NJD and Carolina are 2 of them.

Colorado is being talked about also according to NHL Trade Rumors.

[FredJohnson]

The Athletic predicted Minnesota had only a 28% chance to qualify for the playoffs.
It's up to Flower once that number dips to maybe less than 20%. GMBG will ask him if and where he wants to go. Maybe Winnipeg or Montreal...Toronto?

[FredJohnson]

17 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

For sure! They won't NOT take advantage of each other. But they are careful to so so as you pointed out in the Knights example.

[mnfaninnc]

19 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

To think they've not already had a conversation about where/what Fleury wants to do is ridiculous.

I think you're right on this, and probably also with Goligoski. I also think they'll have it again as we fade further from the playoffs. 

[mnfaninnc]

18 hours ago, MrCheatachu said:

As you've pointed out, it's a small circle, and if you burn those bridges people can be petty.

Multiple sources have reported players are wary about going to play for Vegas due to their treatment of players...running the team like a business and players treated as assets rather than humans.

Has Guerin gone too far in the other direction?  Yeah...it's my opinion that he has.  It's possible to consider the human side, but the end goal must be to win hockey games not make a bunch of friends.

I don't think that Guerin has gone too far. But there is something to be said about the McCrimmon way of doing things too. Mostly, GMs around the league do not remember how nice you were to them, but they do remember when you gouged them. Fletcher and Botteril were good friends and Fletcher bailed him out a couple of times. Yet, when Botteril was fired, all that goodwill went out the window with him. 

I do think that Guerin has had to try and create relationships. I think he tried to do that last season by using his cap to help others out and not ask for the world in return. He's still a young GM, and you have to give to build those relationships, especially when more experienced GMs have several already built up. 

He wants to be known as someone easy to do business with, and that takes time to build that reputation. For the Wild, mostly, because of the buyouts, they've had to shed cap, so he has been on the "losing" end of the deal. However, with the 3rd party cap last season, he was on the winning end and built several relationships (2 in each transaction) with guys he hadn't really done business with. 

[Mateo3xm]

20 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

I think Fleury has been playing the best in a Wild sweater lately.  It should translate into a little higher value especially with the high demand for a goalies right now.  I would target a 2nd rd pick.

I don’t see any way we get a 2nd.

How we getting a 2nd  for a 39 year old sub .900 save percentage and an almost 3 goals against average goalie?

those type of goalies are easy to acquire.

the name no longer has any star power.

[Will D. Ness]

23 hours ago, Mateo3xm said:

I don’t see any way we get a 2nd.

How we getting a 2nd  for a 39 year old sub .900 save percentage and an almost 3 goals against average goalie?

those type of goalies are easy to acquire.

the name no longer has any star power.

Maybe I've got rose colored glasses but I think he has over performed with a really poor defense in front of him.  

[Justin Hein]

On 1/20/2024 at 8:57 AM, FredJohnson said:

The Athletic predicted Minnesota had only a 28% chance to qualify for the playoffs.
It's up to Flower once that number dips to maybe less than 20%. GMBG will ask him if and where he wants to go. Maybe Winnipeg or Montreal...Toronto?

Updated rankings have MIN at 20% even after adjusting for Spurgeon, though that doesn't include players they can add w/ LTIR cap space. 

https://theathletic.com/4938709/2024/01/22/nhl-playoffs-chances-projected-standings-chart/

[Justin Hein]

22 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Maybe I've got rose colored glasses but I think he has over performed with a really poor defense in front of him.  

I encourage you guys to check out MoneyPuck.com's goalies feature -- it's totally free. "Goals Saved Above Expected" does a good (though imperfect) job of isolating goaltending from defense. Fleury has been 3.1 goals above expected at 5v5 (expected = NHL average) so he's helping his defense. 

The PK is where he's been getting killed -- 5 goals below expected this season. Some of the poor defense is likely not captured by this statistic. Fatigue on long penalty kills makes saves harder for goaltenders, and MoneyPuck does not adjust for that intangible. 

https://moneypuck.com/goalies.htm