Article: The Wild Are Showing Us What They Are

[Tom Schreier]

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[Citizen Strife]

I remember something Guerin said.  "Rebuild or tank has never been uttered around the office."  If that's the case, then Craig Leipold hasn't learned anything.  Guerin made some mistakes, but it sure seems like he's yet again just dancing to whatever tune Leipold wants, and that is, "Tank is a dirty word."

That sure sounds like a fun job Guerin has.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

You have to take a step back to win a cup. Look at the roster of the cup winning teams and you most often see 1-3 top five picks, the Wild do not have that. Our history has shown we have a good, deep pool with some solid upside but nothing to the tune of a Leo Carlsson or Matty Beniers let alone a Bedard or Barkov. We have no capital for big free agent acquisitions with the cap hit and a core that will be over an average age of 30 next year. Granted that average age will come down if we can sign Dewar and Duhaime(if they don't price themselves out with shorthanded goals and stellar defensive play).

 

Bottom line is we have locked in a declining core to give cost certainty but cost certainty does not equal performance certainty. If Leipold has no taste for at least a limited rebuild, then he has no taste for a cup. It is simple as that. As long as he continues to demand his revenue stream from a competitive team we will not be able to build a cup contender. It isn't pessimistic, it is probability. I too like to be hopeful that these young stars we have developing can be a part of that cup team. Boldy, Kap, Faber and Ek are building blocks of a very solid team with a real chance at a cup but they won't get there while attached to boat anchors like a 37yr old Foligno or a 35yr old Freddy.     

[Eddy]

Wow!!!! To act like we are just any old team with the cap situation we have 🤣🤣🤣… First of all fletcher’s teams we’re old and yeah the same vets every year signed long term….Guerin has built his team to come😳 you act like these 2 GM’s are comparable but not at all it’ll be 1-2 years before our top prospects will be ready(possibly 3 but I hope not) to go if you look at the contracts you’ll see the ntc ends after 2 years or the contract is 2 years on your so called non team friendly contracts. By the way with the cap increases these are going to continually look better especially Hartman and Freddy. That leaves your other comparison how do you think having a top farm system compares to having nothing? Guerin has built a team for the future and it looks bright! Fletcher did nothing of the sort. When Guerin took over he immediately put the emphasis on drafting and developing a farm system this isn’t the nfl it takes time in the nhl to develop players. I can’t even look at this comparison and think it has any thought behind it🤦‍♂️. Guerin had built a team that has stayed competitive plus has one of the strongest farm systems in the nhl without top picks. I’m gonna just say from a fan’s perspective we have never had a GM that built a team and honestly I look forward to a playoff team each year with a chance while having a future I know isn’t a door closing in 1 or 3 years so we trade everything to fail….Fletcher and dougie!!!!

[Will D. Ness]

What I see is complacency or maybe it is just poor chemistry.   The product on the ice is lackluster for sure.  Injuries are significant and there are major holes (especially defensively) that can't be ignored.  It is looking like everyone is wanting to point a finger at a scapegoat and understandably so.

Is it fair to scapegoat age decline at this point?  Is the sauntering Zuccarello a factor of age or just a factor of not giving a f*?  I don' t know.  Whatever the reason, it's hard to continue to watch the top line.  Especially when there is this really good guy on the team that wows me with both talent and effort only to watch him pass to a guy that can't create or fight or do anything with the puck except pass it to the other team.  The give and go can only work so many times and the shelf life of that tactic ended halfway through last season.  It could be age with Zucc but it could also be effort and size.   

Harman is playing like Hartman.  Scrappy... with occasional glimpses of "damn that was nice".  No age decline issues with Hartman.

Foligno and Freddy were clicking with Rossi.  They were arguably the best line even with a banged up Freddy.  Effort was there, fight was there.  Age?  Not really a question for these guys yet.

Can Folingo and Freddy do this for another 5 years?  Yeah that is the question but we haven't gotten to that bridge yet.  

The scapegoat should be coaching IMO.  Special teams are bottom tier and we are misusing a top 5 player in the league.

[raithis]

You can't just pick a team identity and try to stick with it.  Teams evolve.  Systems evolve.  As things change you need to morph how you approach things to utilize the strengths of the people you have and work on shoring up their weaknesses.  You have to adapt, and you have to know when you need to replace someone on that team.

Koivu was my favorite player on the team for a long time, but as a fan I could accept that he wasn't what he used to be and that we needed to move on.  In a good move, Guerin eventually didn't re-sign him a couple years later, but now he's falling into that same trap, signing players for their past rather than their future.

Grit First might get us to the playoffs.  It might keep us a middling team that isn't at the bottom of the standings at the end of the season, but staying stagnant in approach is going to age worse and worse every year.

We become predictable and easy to play against, trying to aggravate the other team into a mistake to get a win. 

Yet we stick with the same things that aren't working, and expect it to get better.

Would getting bounced 0-4 in the 2nd round sting, definitely.  But it would feel like there was some progress.  Something changed and we can build on that.  Instead we commit to the past, and being content with mediocrity stings all season long.

[MNCountryLife]

IMO: Hartman(+1) or Foligno(+2) have played solid.  Zuc(-5) has not played well.  Kirill(-6) ...ugh!!  We would not be better if we had more players from IA playing up.  But then I think the article is referencing the idea that we would have hope for the future by having players improve by playing up.  There is definitely truth to that.  You improve by playing against better players....usually.

For me... I haven't been able to put a finger on it as to why this team is not clicking.  Perhaps it is because last year we had Spurgeon, Dumba and Boldy playing... all 3 extremely good players that are either gone or out.  Will definitely help to get back Spurge and Boldy.  I am worried that there is more to our losing though.

Whatever it is... Dean and BG need to figure it out soon and correct it.. or this team will be toast by December.  Expectations are starting to diminish.

[Dean]

I read billy was on nhl now. He said he was most proud of the culture change in minny.. I find that mind boggling. What has changed ? Maybe they are having more fun off ice but there is no culture change with the on ice product.  He talks about winning culture. But it’s just talk. Boston has a winning culture. There best 2 centers retire and they just keep winning. We lose someone to injury and it’s an excuse for everything. Just like the buyouts billy keeps saying aren’t an excuse but keeps using as an excuse . Like he did on nhl now.  
    We had a winning culture that Jacques lemaire instilled into this team. Out work everyone no matter the quality of your team.  Just work hard.  So when Billy talks culture. That’s what I think of and we are nowhere close to our  identity .  If we played that way with the talent on this team we could be a good team and show progress in playoffs. However we don’t . Is it the coach? The players? Idk. I do know if you didn’t compete hard you didn’t play for Jacques. No matter draft position or salary. 
    So if Billy and Craig aren’t going to rebuild and get top 5 studs then we need to out work everyone to advance in playoffs.  Something this team hasn’t done since Jacques.

   We are seriously going into 3 decades of nothing but what Jacques did. 

[Willy the poor boy]

13 minutes ago, Dean said:

I read billy was on nhl now. He said he was most proud of the culture change in minny.. I find that mind boggling. What has changed ? Maybe they are having more fun off ice but there is no culture change with the on ice product.  He talks about winning culture. But it’s just talk. Boston has a winning culture. There best 2 centers retire and they just keep winning. We lose someone to injury and it’s an excuse for everything. Just like the buyouts billy keeps saying aren’t an excuse but keeps using as an excuse . Like he did on nhl now.  
    We had a winning culture that Jacques lemaire instilled into this team. Out work everyone no matter the quality of your team.  Just work hard.  So when Billy talks culture. That’s what I think of and we are nowhere close to our  identity .  If we played that way with the talent on this team we could be a good team and show progress in playoffs. However we don’t . Is it the coach? The players? Idk. I do know if you didn’t compete hard you didn’t play for Jacques. No matter draft position or salary. 
    So if Billy and Craig aren’t going to rebuild and get top 5 studs then we need to out work everyone to advance in playoffs.  Something this team hasn’t done since Jacques.

   We are seriously going into 3 decades of nothing but what Jacques did. 

JL didn't do anything either except ride two hot goalies to the CF one season. If you think DE is the kind of coach whose gonna let you slack, I think your off base. Who do you think is out on the ice just biding their time?

[Protec]

If I remember correctly MN was like 7-10 last year in the first 6-8 weeks. The year before that, they were 10-7 or so. 

This year, they're not off that pace one way or the other. 

I think the same group of players has a much higher ceiling than what we've seen so far but I'm not ready to make too many conclusions other than the impotent PP, and generally lousy PK.

[Luke Sims]

The fact that people are upset about this means he's probably right...

[Lovehockey]

1 hour ago, Dean said:

I read billy was on nhl now. He said he was most proud of the culture change in minny.. I find that mind boggling. What has changed ? Maybe they are having more fun off ice but there is no culture change with the on ice product.  He talks about winning culture. But it’s just talk. Boston has a winning culture. There best 2 centers retire and they just keep winning. We lose someone to injury and it’s an excuse for everything. Just like the buyouts billy keeps saying aren’t an excuse but keeps using as an excuse . Like he did on nhl now.  
    We had a winning culture that Jacques lemaire instilled into this team. Out work everyone no matter the quality of your team.  Just work hard.  So when Billy talks culture. That’s what I think of and we are nowhere close to our  identity .  If we played that way with the talent on this team we could be a good team and show progress in playoffs. However we don’t . Is it the coach? The players? Idk. I do know if you didn’t compete hard you didn’t play for Jacques. No matter draft position or salary. 
    So if Billy and Craig aren’t going to rebuild and get top 5 studs then we need to out work everyone to advance in playoffs.  Something this team hasn’t done since Jacques.

   We are seriously going into 3 decades of nothing but what Jacques did. 

Very good post. I just want to add one thing. BG is the Wild GM for already 4 years. And if for this time he is most proud of to creating the “changing the culture “ I am very surprised that he has a job. This would not happened in any other businesses (unless u a head of HR). 

[Dean]

IMO   Dean isn’t even remotely close to a coach like Jacques lemaire. Jl had a terrible roster but made no excuses. He put guys in positions to be successful and expected the best out of them or they didn’t play. Gaborik learned this. Defense first then offense. 
   DE has had kappy, fiala Boldy, fleury , Gustafson , Talbot.  He hasn’t won a playoff round in anything. His team has given up in playoffs . He said this year training camp was work man like. They come out and don’t show up for games. His special teams are terrible year after year . So go get an assistant to help you . His players show up for few games then get lost because they won’t lose their spot in lineup . Ek Brodin and Faber are only ones I see bringing  it consistently . There’s Just no comparison  between coaches imo . Jacques is a well respected hockey mind around the nhl. Not so much for Dean . 
    I think if the wild came out at the beginning of year and set expectations for success honestly then there wouldn’t be as much strife from fans.  To say going for cup to start then in the end cry about buyouts is ridiculous.  Jl wouldn’t do it. What is success this year? Playoffs and flame out first round ? 2 nd round ? Growth in kids? What is their definition of success. ? Going around the media circuit calling yourself successful is ridiculous. Set a goal and make it successfully or fail. Don’t move goal posts all year long. 
     Billy’s been here what 4- 5 years. His plan seems to be another 3-5 years. So almost a decade of Billy. A decade he could have tore down and rebuilt.  What is a successful Billy decade? IMO he needs to sniff that cup in 10 years or he was a waste of a decade!!  

[mnfaninnc]

8 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

You have to take a step back to win a cup. Look at the roster of the cup winning teams and you most often see 1-3 top five picks, the Wild do not have that. Our history has shown we have a good, deep pool with some solid upside but nothing to the tune of a Leo Carlsson or Matty Beniers let alone a Bedard or Barkov. We have no capital for big free agent acquisitions with the cap hit and a core that will be over an average age of 30 next year.

I'm not sure you need those 1-3 picks. They're nice players, but when I was looking up the most effective way, it was finding 3-4 draft hits in 2-3 successive years. Getting that core together was the key. I did not notice when they came up (if it was together) just their draft years. I also didn't look at if they traded for others in that same draft class to go along.

These last 4 drafts have been a conundrum with the Pandemic fallout. We very well could have drafted well above our position in these years. If we got depth, we might have hit on those drafts. So, for argument's sake, let's take a look at the 2020 draft: Marco Rossi is just starting out, but he appears to be a contributor potentially. Daemon Hunt comes from that class and is just getting started. Dino comes over from that class and may make the team in the next 2 seasons. And, I think we have to add Brock Faber to the mix, while we didn't draft him, he came up and debuted here. 

In 2021, we plucked a potential top 5 pick, most likely a top 10 in The Wall, and a tumbling Carson Lambos who was also at one time rated in that top 10. Jack Peart, Caeden Bankier and Kyle Masters all have shots at making the big club. In 2022 we came away with Ohgren and Yurov, both who probably dropped. But, Mikey Milne, David Spacek and Servac Petrovsky all have a shot at making it, and Hunter Haight is also in this class.

But, these guys are still quite a ways away from debuting. And, the bar wasn't star, it was solid contributor. A solid contributor can still play bottom 6 minutes or 3rd pairing D. 

[mnfaninnc]

6 hours ago, MNCountryLife said:

Whatever it is... Dean and BG need to figure it out soon and correct it.. or this team will be toast by December.  Expectations are starting to diminish.

I disagree with this statement. Shooter is the one that needs to figure this out. Evason may be part of the problem. But, if he is, then if you take him out, who comes in? That part, to me, isn't available yet.

[mnfaninnc]

6 hours ago, Dean said:

If we played that way with the talent on this team we could be a good team and show progress in playoffs. However we don’t . Is it the coach? The players?

The answer to this seems to be the coaching, IMO. No practice when your special teams look horrible? There you go. No adjustments when your special teams look horrible? There you go. No answers when your special teams look horrible, not even a copy of Special Teams for Dummies? There you go.

And one more, you can't demand that your team plays hard for the whole game? There you go. Brind 'Amor gets that kind of effort out of his team. It can be done.

Edited November 1, 2023 by mnfaninnc

[mnfaninnc]

4 hours ago, Lovehockey said:

Very good post. I just want to add one thing. BG is the Wild GM for already 4 years. And if for this time he is most proud of to creating the “changing the culture “ I am very surprised that he has a job. This would not happened in any other businesses (unless u a head of HR). 

I think he's talking about the lousy culture that was under the Parise/Suter leadership, and the terrible front office that the Big Dufas had for one year. I think that is fair and probably took a long time to turn around. That might just have been step 1 in a long process.

I think you can also point to what's marinating in the cupboards. Eventually, some of that will be successful up in the N. Remember, his 1st year came after the draft and most of free agency. 

[Dean]

I totally agree with mnfaninnc!!! We need a brindamour. It would at least tell us what we have on team and  then could move out dead weight. 

[mnfaninnc]

1 hour ago, Dean said:

IMO   Dean isn’t even remotely close to a coach like Jacques lemaire. Jl had a terrible roster but made no excuses. He put guys in positions to be successful and expected the best out of them or they didn’t play. Gaborik learned this. Defense first then offense. 
   DE has had kappy, fiala Boldy, fleury , Gustafson , Talbot.  He hasn’t won a playoff round in anything. His team has given up in playoffs . He said this year training camp was work man like. They come out and don’t show up for games. His special teams are terrible year after year . So go get an assistant to help you . His players show up for few games then get lost because they won’t lose their spot in lineup . Ek Brodin and Faber are only ones I see bringing  it consistently . There’s Just no comparison  between coaches imo . Jacques is a well respected hockey mind around the nhl. Not so much for Dean . 
    I think if the wild came out at the beginning of year and set expectations for success honestly then there wouldn’t be as much strife from fans.  To say going for cup to start then in the end cry about buyouts is ridiculous.  Jl wouldn’t do it. What is success this year? Playoffs and flame out first round ? 2 nd round ? Growth in kids? What is their definition of success. ? Going around the media circuit calling yourself successful is ridiculous. Set a goal and make it successfully or fail. Don’t move goal posts all year long. 
     Billy’s been here what 4- 5 years. His plan seems to be another 3-5 years. So almost a decade of Billy. A decade he could have tore down and rebuilt.  What is a successful Billy decade? IMO he needs to sniff that cup in 10 years or he was a waste of a decade!!  

Dean, I get your venting. But let's get to reality. OCL demanded that his teams make the playoffs, so a tear down and build up was not possible from that standpoint. You'd need a different owner to follow that logic. 

Guerin took the job knowing that he had to field a competitive team. By definition, a competitive team is fighting for a playoff spot with 10 games to play. Guerin's teams have overperformed this standard each year. 

Guerin then had to draft better than everyone else somewhere in the late teens to early 20s. He caught a break with the pandemic which jumbled all prospects up and another break when Judd became available. Now, guys draft there do not typically become stars, but they do become solid players, but, due to the pandemic, we could get more stars out of that group. 

But, your beef is with the coaching, and that is mine too. Before we ever extended Dean, an extension I believe was earned, I pointed out his dismal track record in playoff series for his whole professional coaching career. Was he the right guy for the job? He earned his extension, but he was only the right guy for the job as long as he kept improving the kids. He hasn't been doing that lately. His teams don't win draws, don't kill penalties, don't score on must needed PPs (and sometimes refuse to shoot), and take periods off. Oh, lest we forget, they don't particularly like to practice either. 

I would say his message has grown stale, and he is not getting the response he needs from his players. So, if he's gone, Dean, this is the question, the only question: Who takes his place?????

I've got 2 names on my list: Mike Sullivan and Gerard Gallant. Gallant is available now, Sullivan is still a Penguin. Anyone else want to add a name? And I'd also suggest that Darby Hendrickson and Woods might have to be replaced as well.

[mnfaninnc]

17 minutes ago, Dean said:

I totally agree with mnfaninnc!!! We need a brindamour. It would at least tell us what we have on team and  then could move out dead weight. 

I don't think Brind 'Amour is going anywhere, but where do we find a guy like that?

Incidentally, Brind 'Amour went to the front office when he retired as an assistant and then started coaching down on the Carolina farm team in Charlotte. He proved himself there before getting the gig in Raleigh. Is Brett McLean that guy? I'm not so sure he has the street cred to be that guy. Could Mikko Koivu be that guy?

Edited November 1, 2023 by mnfaninnc

[Sviginak]

Well Tom, fairly negative article, a lot of shortcomings in Bill Guerin’s moves, and some of us know well how to respond to that! I thought his name should have been in the title.

Yeah, it is looking like we may have a down year after a couple 100 point seasons and what, playoffs made in the last eight or nine years. I have watched the games this season and would say, yes, we can play a lot better. But I think we could have won a couple of the losses with just a little bit of puck luck, which tells me we are not far behind the teams we have lost to.Watching Toronto and L.A. tonight confirms my suspicions. It is early in the season for everyone.  We will get better, will it be enough to move from tied for fourth in the Central to a much safer playoff position? I hope so and will keep watching.

[Dean]

Yeah you’re right. I vent too much Having been a die hard day one fan , that’s invested time and money in this team. I’m frustrated after the embarrassing playoffs again and that end of season press conference. Then to start this year with the extensions. I find frustrating. I just see us wasting kappys prime years with no plan . 

I’ve always liked bill. Loved watching him play. Definitely respect him but I’m hard on him. He’s done good things like you say . He’s definitely beholden to Craig  He is a good gm. However I think there are good GMs and Stanley cup GMs. Yzerman i think will win cup in Detroit. Billy I thought could but the way he is with money. Not so sure . 
   Dean I respect for getting the team to the playoffs. That’s impressive for young coach. However he hasn’t shown the big game coaching imo. He will probably in time become a decent coach but do I want him to learn during the kappy years. No.  I understood why bill extended him. We truly aren’t ready to compete so why get that killer coach. Ride Dean. However that was before the player extensions. . Now we’re stuck with the players so any change would have to be coaching if things go sideways. I thought let’s see what Dean does this year and if we miss playoffs trade players for picks. Now it’s like playoffs or failure.

     I like your galant idea .. Darby played for Jacque. I just don’t see bill doing anything coaching wise. 

[Protec]

The Wild have to repair the special teams play and get some consistency going. Those things are making it look worse than it is, but...

Expecting good netminding and a PP goal more than 1 in 10, or a PK more than 1 in 3 isn't too much.

[Been There Done That]

8 hours ago, Dean said:

I read billy was on nhl now. He said he was most proud of the culture change in minny.. I find that mind boggling. What has changed ? Maybe they are having more fun off ice but there is no culture change with the on ice product.  He talks about winning culture. But it’s just talk. Boston has a winning culture. There best 2 centers retire and they just keep winning. We lose someone to injury and it’s an excuse for everything. Just like the buyouts billy keeps saying aren’t an excuse but keeps using as an excuse . Like he did on nhl now.  
    We had a winning culture that Jacques lemaire instilled into this team. Out work everyone no matter the quality of your team.  Just work hard.  So when Billy talks culture. That’s what I think of and we are nowhere close to our  identity .  If we played that way with the talent on this team we could be a good team and show progress in playoffs. However we don’t . Is it the coach? The players? Idk. I do know if you didn’t compete hard you didn’t play for Jacques. No matter draft position or salary. 
    So if Billy and Craig aren’t going to rebuild and get top 5 studs then we need to out work everyone to advance in playoffs.  Something this team hasn’t done since Jacques.

   We are seriously going into 3 decades of nothing but what Jacques did. 

And the next Wild GMs first words will be..."We have to change the culture."

[Greenbean]

I don't trust Guerin anymore. He says 1 thing and his actions tell a different story. But as some have pointed out, it doesn't matter who the GM is. OCL is a tool of an owner and doesn't give 2 squirts of goose s#*t about the fans, the state, and let alone a Stanley cup. It kinda makes me want to start seeing some massive amounts of empty seats at home games. Time to send that donkey a message.