Article: Wilderness Walk: Minnesota Lands PWHL Team

[Thomas Williams]

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[Up North Guy]

Hope they keep the Whitecaps name. I like continuity but doubt it happens.

[mnfaninnc]

I am not a Women's hockey fan, but I'm a little confused as to why it is struggling so? I think some of it has to do with players expecting professional athlete salaries kind of like the men do. There is no title 9 in professional sports.

If you go back and look at all of the big 4 leagues, and even NASCAR, you'll find that the beginning was real tough on the players. Even some 40 years later, football players were having to take offseason jobs to make ends meet. That is the reality of any new league.

Ex-NHLers with daughters who are trying to make this will need to heavily invest and subsidize. I have no idea what kind of attendance there is at these games. My suspicion is that it does not go >5000. If this is the case, why wouldn't you be looking to play in college arenas? The X is fun, but I highly doubt it fills up. You want the illusion that the place is packed! For me, I would imagine that college or ECHL capacity arenas would be the target. 

As for the players, yes, you have to work harder for peanuts. You have to get out in the public eye, be signing autographs, and give the public a reason to come watch you play. Perhaps, some young girl players will convince their dads to take them. Growth is slow, and you need to think in terms of generations, not years. If it is a good idea and profitable, I fully support the players getting a bonus out of the profits. If it is not profitable, but still a good idea, then the owners and investors will have to continue to subsidize. 

There is no entitlement here. Ground floor stuff is hard. We've already seen leagues fail. Deep pockets are needed. A low budget tv deal would be helpful (it's not about tv money, it's about exposure). Also, making it an extremely affordable ticket where a family of 4 can have a real nice time for under $50 including concessions and souvenirs, you can grow the league. If you expect too much too soon, well, it will fail again. 

What would help out is if the NHL would allow use of their training facilities, both in their cities and with their lower affiliates. That would be an advantage the other leagues never got. 

[vonlonster67]

My neighbor and friend's daughter played for the U of MN back in 1997-98 when they didn't have a women's hockey team or any organization for colleges to play for a national championship. They played in the WCHA and won a American Women's College Hockey Alliance championship in 2000.

Fast forward and 6 NCAA Championships later the program is a success along with several college teams throughout the Nation and in the State of MN.

It will be interesting to see if this can take off. It took the college a good 5 years to get a following and get a established.  The market here along with all of these markets that are starting the new league are inundated with hockey and talent and all levels from young grade schoolers to college and now pros. There is a lot of options to see girls/women's hockey.

Salary for these women is an obvious issue as there have been several leagues and teams in MN prior that couldn't make it. The game has come a long way since '97-98 and the game elevates every year along with the talent. It's not like watching men's hockey just like any sport, but don't let that stop you from taking in a game.

I'm proud to see MN women all over the country impacting college, Olympics, Juniors and Professional Leagues. The talent level available in this state is off the charts. They have my support and following!

[mnfaninnc]

23 hours ago, vonlonster67 said:

Fast forward and 6 NCAA Championships later the program is a success along with several college teams throughout the Nation and in the State of MN.

It will be interesting to see if this can take off. It took the college a good 5 years to get a following and get a established.  The market here along with all of these markets that are starting the new league are inundated with hockey and talent and all levels from young grade schoolers to college and now pros. There is a lot of options to see girls/women's hockey.

Von, when you say it is a success, what definition of that are you using? Is it team success with the National Championships, or is it customer success where you can hardly find a ticket? 

Is this sport turning a profit, or at least paying for itself? What is the attendance like? What is the arena capacity? 

I guess you could ask the same questions about the Lynx. They appear to be successful on the court, but do they fill an arena? Is a ticket hard to come by? Are the tickets reasonably priced or high like the men's games? And for both, do they put on a good show? 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, but being successful is more than winning championships.

[vonlonster67]

45 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Von, when you say it is a success, what definition of that are you using? Is it team success with the National Championships, or is it customer success where you can hardly find a ticket? 

Is this sport turning a profit, or at least paying for itself? What is the attendance like? What is the arena capacity? 

I guess you could ask the same questions about the Lynx. They appear to be successful on the court, but do they fill an arena? Is a ticket hard to come by? Are the tickets reasonably priced or high like the men's games? And for both, do they put on a good show? 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, but being successful is more than winning championships.

Success isn't numbers of fans, its the next generation of girls hockey players/followers/supporters. That is what is needed for the future.

NHL is gonna back this for the $$$ needed to continue to build the fanbase needed

[mnfaninnc]

13 hours ago, vonlonster67 said:

Success isn't numbers of fans, its the next generation of girls hockey players/followers/supporters. That is what is needed for the future.

NHL is gonna back this for the $$$ needed to continue to build the fanbase needed

I disagree. If the fans will not support it, it will fail. For it to be a success, it's the business of women's hockey that must succeed. The next generation of girl's hockey will be fine with Title 9 expenditures. But, what do the girls do after that? If there is no market, or a very small market, the then women will not be given full-time salaries that amount to anything. The league will be 2nd rate or lower, and it will just be played for the love of the sport. 

These "professional" women are wanting to make a career out of this, not just a couple of years before they find something they really want to do. For that to happen, the business end must click. I can see them being subsidized for a generation, but after that, they've got to sink or swim on their own. They will have to work harder than any of the other sports (especially since equipment is more expensive than other sports). They must also put on a good show for anyone in attendance, meaning, it's not just a competition, it's also entertainment. 

Without this, it will die on the vine! Can they draw better than a high school boys hockey game? If not, what do they need to do to make that happen?  What will appeal to the fans? What will give them an edge? They are fighting for entertainment dollars just like anyone else including movie theaters, symphonies, broadway productions, roller derby, and all other sporting activities. There's only so much of that to go around.

[vonlonster67]

38 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I disagree. If the fans will not support it, it will fail. For it to be a success, it's the business of women's hockey that must succeed. The next generation of girl's hockey will be fine with Title 9 expenditures. But, what do the girls do after that? If there is no market, or a very small market, the then women will not be given full-time salaries that amount to anything. The league will be 2nd rate or lower, and it will just be played for the love of the sport. 

These "professional" women are wanting to make a career out of this, not just a couple of years before they find something they really want to do. For that to happen, the business end must click. I can see them being subsidized for a generation, but after that, they've got to sink or swim on their own. They will have to work harder than any of the other sports (especially since equipment is more expensive than other sports). They must also put on a good show for anyone in attendance, meaning, it's not just a competition, it's also entertainment. 

Without this, it will die on the vine! Can they draw better than a high school boys hockey game? If not, what do they need to do to make that happen?  What will appeal to the fans? What will give them an edge? They are fighting for entertainment dollars just like anyone else including movie theaters, symphonies, broadway productions, roller derby, and all other sporting activities. There's only so much of that to go around.

Your arguing the chicken or the egg theory. This adventure like similar in other sports are not able to sustain as you say at this point.

That's why you need to grow it further, allow women to run it and develop what is necessary. It will only be developed if the NHL uses the NBA model. 

Either way all your concerns are valid, but it's not going to happen overnight or probably be fair. Look were we've come since organized high school girls sports in the 70's til today.

Gonna be a continuous work in progress.  Europe has always been an option for all female athletes,  do we use their model.  I don't have those answers, but I'm married to a college athlete and coach and also had daughters who were college athletes/coach. I get it.

 

 

[mnfaninnc]

3 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

Your arguing the chicken or the egg theory. This adventure like similar in other sports are not able to sustain as you say at this point.

I don't think it is chicken or egg. I think you have to look back on the men's organizations from way back to see what they had to go through. It took generations for them to get successful. I do think if you look back, you will find several mistakes they made early on, and you can avoid those things.

But, all the same, I don't think you can expect the sport to be subsidized for more than a generation before it has to stand on its own. And, the business model has to make sense, or, it will cease to exist. Some things that happen are too much too soon. What I mean by that is playing games at the X when you're drawing 1500 people. The X costs a lot of money to operate. A better venue would be a 2500 seat arena where it seems like a full house. When you eclipse that, maybe moving up to a 5000 seat arena is the next step. 

Exposure trumps money made in this era. A tv deal would be great if they could draw an audience. For instance, our local news just had a story on a long time Charlotte Knights broadcaster. He got started in an era where the Knights didn't even feel they needed an announcer. They told him at the beginning, if he could get them on the radio, he could have the job. The announcer then bought radio time on his credit card to start being the announcer. It worked out for him, but it was initially a pretty big risk. How many people listened to the radio broadcast? I have no idea, but he's still employed there!

Like most startups, they won't be turning profits for years. Their clear focus is gaining fans who will stand by them, and hoping those fans will bring others. They'll have to take advantage of every possible aspect, like if there's another player's strike, they're playing. They have to be extremely accessible for any opportunity in the media or public. Their lives will not be private, they will be very public and it has to be that way. And, for that, the reward will be a better league for the next generation, they will be completely paying that ahead. Some may get to front office positions, or become broadcasters. They will also have to bribe someone to put their highlights on the news, even if just for 30 seconds. 

I hope they're successful, but there's so much work to be done, and I seriously wonder if they are up to the task. I don't say this to pick on a generation, but the younger generation where these women are coming from have a tendency to feel entitled. If there's any of that attitude, it needs to be challenged and done away with no matter how good of a player they are. And, to be honest, they will probably have to hold down other jobs too, just to make it.

[Sviginak]

Everything sports related (and life in general) started out white males only. We have moved quite a bit in the right direction, more in some sports than others. You go girl!!