Article: Trading Marcus Foligno Would Cost Wild Their Identity

[Aaron Heckmann]

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[mnfaninnc]

If it were up to me, I'd be keeping Foligno....for now. At some point, the transition will happen. What is Foligno worth in terms of a trade? I would suggest that for this unique player, probably more at the TDL. I'd focus on trading Zuccarello and Addison. 

Now to the question of branding. This current brand is a meat and potatoes type of regular guy clothing. However, when the transition happens, it seems like there will suddenly be a fashion infusion into the brand and it will be placed in a different section of the store. We will have the firepower to run 3 scoring lines, assuming we can find adequate help down the middle. 

So, what does that mean for Moose? For the Wild? Well, in the not so distant future, it looks like they will be a solid depth team that can score on at least 3 lines and play a pretty nice skill game. That also means that their "grit" identity that is right now will kind of fade away. 

I'm excited for the future and what's coming, but I'd be lying if I wasn't going to miss some of the heavy hitting a guy like Foligno can provide. 2 things get butts out of seats, physical play including fights and heavy hits, and pretty goals. It would be nice to have both items in the tool box.

Incidentally, just as a reminder, Zuccarello can be traded to 21 other teams. 3 of them may still be playing. This could happen tomorrow as Shooter already has his list. His new list starts with the new league year. If you need to open up cap space, this would be the way to go. The key to making it ok with Kaprizov is finding a replacement that helps us win more games. I'd suggest that player(s) has a center in it. He and Boldy have enough chemistry to be each other's wingmen. Yurov, Khus%^&*( are 1 year away.

[vonlonster67]

If it was up to me, in my heart, I would keep "Moose", but in a practical sense I need to move on and salvage the rest of my team. I cant wait to see what he does this year like we did with Greenway in the past and end up trading him any way. We need a fresh clean start as it will take some adjusting team wise with him moving on from a leadership role.

If you have watched any of the playoffs of the final four, its not physical fighters we need, but physical play by all involved. I'm leaving my old school way and feelings and parting way with Foligno and not mortgaging my future with signing Reevo.

It's not what you get back for Moose, its what it allows you to do with retaining Gustavsson, Duhaime, Steel and Shaw (2-way) and maybe another D after you trade Goose, Merrill, or Addison. I agree with you on on trading Zuccarello and Addison, but there's NO CHANCE Zucci leaves as long as KK is here. Unfornately, we will have to bare that burden another year of his play being what it is and him wearing down via age at the end of season.

Nothing changes with KK until he sees an opportunity with Khusnutdinov centering his line with Yurov joining the mix. I hope Zucci decides to ride off into the sunset and joins his new baby girl leaving KK to focus on the future line.

The pretty goals will come and I'm with you on seeing two players square off, but as we are seeing last year in the playoffs and this year.....its just entertainment during the regular season and a non-factor on the journey to the cup.

Times are changing and we have to accept the fact it will disappear from our game. We'll still see physical play, some punches and face washes in the scrums, but fights are mostly for the fans. Physical hits do the same...as we saw last night with Slavin leaving the game for Carolina and Bennet continuing to be a menace on the ice. That's what we need! We don't need to kill a penalty, while losing a penalty killer for 5 minutes, and disrupting all our lines during that time.

The NHL is just like any other leagues; a copycat league. Success changes the way and the path with other teams replicating the following year. LOVE DA MOOSE FOREVER and will continue to wear his jersey that I own for the good times I enjoyed while watching and appreciating the man he is off the ice.

Edited May 25, 2023 by vonlonster67

[dlhouse]

Their “identity” is a team that folds every year in the playoffs. He fell off a cliff statistically in the regular season this year and has 2G, 5A in 28 playoff games with the Wild. Not good enough. We can’t afford to be using salary cap on players like Foligno who don’t make a big difference when it matters.

[mnfaninnc]

7 hours ago, dlhouse said:

Their “identity” is a team that folds every year in the playoffs. He fell off a cliff statistically in the regular season this year and has 2G, 5A in 28 playoff games with the Wild. Not good enough. We can’t afford to be using salary cap on players like Foligno who don’t make a big difference when it matters.

One of the things that's hard is to speculate on what will happen in the future. Above is Foligno's playoff stats from the past. Is there any reason to believe this will change? Does Foligno do other things that lead to winning? Will his body begin to fail him, and he'll go down the same path as his brother as far as aging out?

I don't think you can look at the above stats and simply say that's what you've got here. He had just 1 goal in this playoffs and it was a nice tip. As for his penalties, several of those simply weren't legit, and I believe he got a 10 when everyone who could fight was invited back to the showers early to avoid further disturbances. 

The stats could change a little bit, a .25/ppg doesn't look like it would be hard to increase, but it probably doesn't go much. I think the final question is the big one, and I'd have to agree with dlhouse on it. Nick's game flew south for the winter rather quickly, and I think we could see the same thing in Moose. Moose seems to be here for culture purposes, and he's done a nice job changing things, but that slowdown is one where you'd rather part ways a year earlier than a year later.

Depending on where we're at, I think the best thing for Foligno is to trade him at the deadline, give him another 6 months with our culture, and then move him to a true contender. I think you could probably get a 1st for him, though it will be a 1st likely in the mid to late 20s at best. Is there a chance Bankier could be ready to take his spot? Probably not that quickly, so we probably backfill with more of a scorer. 

[vonlonster67]

34 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

One of the things that's hard is to speculate on what will happen in the future. Above is Foligno's playoff stats from the past. Is there any reason to believe this will change? Does Foligno do other things that lead to winning? Will his body begin to fail him, and he'll go down the same path as his brother as far as aging out?

I don't think you can look at the above stats and simply say that's what you've got here. He had just 1 goal in this playoffs and it was a nice tip. As for his penalties, several of those simply weren't legit, and I believe he got a 10 when everyone who could fight was invited back to the showers early to avoid further disturbances. 

The stats could change a little bit, a .25/ppg doesn't look like it would be hard to increase, but it probably doesn't go much. I think the final question is the big one, and I'd have to agree with dlhouse on it. Nick's game flew south for the winter rather quickly, and I think we could see the same thing in Moose. Moose seems to be here for culture purposes, and he's done a nice job changing things, but that slowdown is one where you'd rather part ways a year earlier than a year later.

Depending on where we're at, I think the best thing for Foligno is to trade him at the deadline, give him another 6 months with our culture, and then move him to a true contender. I think you could probably get a 1st for him, though it will be a 1st likely in the mid to late 20s at best. Is there a chance Bankier could be ready to take his spot? Probably not that quickly, so we probably backfill with more of a scorer. 

A mid-late 1st would be great, but realistically we will probably be lucky to get a 3rd similar to what we gave up to get JoJo... or at worst a 5th that we paid for Reevo.

It will really depend on who the buyer is and what they're looking for. BG isn't gonna dump him to the highest bidder either as he always protects his players and he respects the process,

His replacement will be Duhaime and we'll fill that 4th line with our Iowa standouts.

[mnfaninnc]

4 minutes ago, vonlonster67 said:

A mid-late 1st would be great, but realistically we will probably be lucky to get a 3rd similar to what we gave up to get JoJo... or at worst a 5th that we paid for Reevo.

I'd project a late 1st mainly based upon what you said, Shooter will send Foligno to a place that has a chance to win it all. Why a 1st? I think Foligno's unique traits will be good for a cup running team. I would also expect competition for the player. Johansson was really a cap dump for Washington. I don't think anyone expected him to work out as well as he did.

Shooter was able to get a 2nd for Greenway. I'd predict that Foligno is worth more than Greenway was. Perhaps it's not a '24 1st, maybe a '25 or '26 one.

[vonlonster67]

48 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I'd project a late 1st mainly based upon what you said, Shooter will send Foligno to a place that has a chance to win it all. Why a 1st? I think Foligno's unique traits will be good for a cup running team. I would also expect competition for the player. Johansson was really a cap dump for Washington. I don't think anyone expected him to work out as well as he did.

Shooter was able to get a 2nd for Greenway. I'd predict that Foligno is worth more than Greenway was. Perhaps it's not a '24 1st, maybe a '25 or '26 one.

All we can do is hope; age and last year's showing will factor in, but a player swap similar to Gus might be nice also as we are really log jammed already with prospects. 

Here's a flyer, Moose and our #1 in '23 to move up.

[WIWild]

We are such a fickle fandom. So and so should take a "team friendly" contract, like we would even consider working for less to keep our job with 3m or Toro, or whoever.

Who are the top players who clearly cared what happened to the Wild all season, into the playoffs - and who does it also seem like were hardest on? Dumba (who fans say should take a team friendly deal, not even a fair deal), Hartman (who fans were hard on, but took a team friendly deal and made Ehlers accountable for his nonsense, not to mention his jedi mind tricks with Binnington), Zuccy (he's starting to get old, but clearly has chemistry with 97 and behaves like he should be wearing a letter, both with refs and in the press), and Foligno (who stayed inside Suter's back pocket after his treating 97 like a pinata - where was Reavo, like when he was in the playoffs against us as a VGK).

We realistically never expected the Wild to win the cup this year, or next. So, I would rather see these guys, and their passion, than some other fill ins that don't move the needle significantly more and don't have the passion (and I'm sure you can think of some players on our roster that fit this description too). Some guys are only here for the paycheck (fair enough), don't bail on those that give you their all - they are way more fun to watch.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

I've had enough of keeping players for our identity. I like Foligno as a player but his comments and actions in playoffs were a detriment to the team. I understand they were terrible calls by the refs but you don't call them out and expect to get a fair game called next game. Call it politics, strategy or coaching we got played in the post game pressers by DeBoer.

Foligno lays lots of hits, but are we a team built to play a gritty game? Our defense is too small and our physical pool too shallow to get into blow for blow type games. I think it's time to shift the culture. Dallas is a similar mentality team that has the star power to go with the physicality yet is still proving to be lacking for the cup.

Watch Carolina, Florida or Vegas play. Does it look like they emphasis or prioritize grit and toughness? No. Carolina plays a very structured defensive game that would match well to our defense but not overly physical. Florida has lots of loud players that will get into gritty area but hardly focused on that in staffing. Vegas is a gritty team, but they have deep star power and are sitting way over the cap to get there. 

Show me the deep playoff team bringing in a enforcer every year. They don't. Every player on those teams has the capacity to score. They don't bring in big guys just for hitting, fighting or locker room presence. 

Gudas is Florida's biggest hitter(77) and plays 18 mins average. Followed by Bennett(62) and Tkachuk(54). These are players that bring something else to the table.

Carolina is Skjei(52), Fast(46) and Jarvis(42), all consistent contributors. Skjei plays 24 TOIA and Fast and Jarvis are both top 5 in points contribution.

Vegas is Kolesar, Barbie and Howden. Kolesar is a forth liner, still has 3 pts, but the other two are huge contributors in other ways as well.

Dallas is Hakanpaa, Marchment and Faksa. They are much more evenly hitting team than the above and do employ more specialized players as I highlighted above. 

[Protec]

^^^

I agree the grit at first priority isn't a winning formula alone.

The problem was when Flogino was fighting is that the Wild were bullied and had few other tough players. Too much finesse or Raskish guys like Donato or Kunin who might have had some talents but weren't gritty players or really able to drive offense. They're passengers. The thing that is odd is how the Wild were looking weak and timid early in the year prompting Reaves acquisition. Other than the GEEK line, #17 hasn't really been successful in much other than throwing the body around. That is an indictment of Foligno's ability as a big-time contributor on the ice. The recent playoffs was an example of what the typical contribution looks like. We needed Tuch more than Foligno. He might be a glue guy, leader, and hitter for the Wild but his on ice elements from an offensive perspective could be replaced. How much value are you putting on the other stuff???

I think for NHL hockey and the Wild's toughness I think you need more guys just like Tuch. That's the kind of winger you'd rather have. Guys like Reaves, Foligno, Lucic, or to a lesser degree Tom Wilson are kind of a specialist in their own way which is simply to curb shenanigans against your guys. I understand the reason to keep that role for someone else in the case of the GEEK line's success or holding #5 back from fighting or playing too hot for the sake of keeping the defense on the ice rather than the box.

I dunno, I don't really dislike Foligno but his value as a tradable asset is not awesome. Same with the Norwegian Hobbit. Letting them play out their last year of their deals here might be a motive for them to perform if they wanna stay in the NHL. The more I've thought about it, I think the Wild just need to let young players fight for jobs. Sign the RFAs you can and if you're gonna trade, I'd move Addison. Otherwise ride out another year and let the team & coach try to be better. They've been good but will have to be better. Especially in the Playoffs. Looking for Boldy, Faber, and Gus to begin seeing themselves as the answer when the going gets tough. Putting it all on #97 and aging vets is not gonna cut the mustard...

 

[Protec]

Anders Lee, Oshie, Tkachuk, Crieder, or Benn are the types you'd rather have. Of course, the Wild can't afford that tier players.

In a previous era, LeClair, C.Lemioux, Andreychuk, Tkachuk, Guerin, or after that Holmstrom, McCarty, Burns, Big-Buff were the kinds of wingers you wanted that were not one-faceted. For me, a final year of #36 & #17 is okay. Trading them wouldn't be a huge benefit especially if you have to replace them. However you could argue, Mojo and Sundqvuisst could do what Foligno and Zuccarello do for like one third of the cost. So there's a decent reason to look at the possibility.

[vonlonster67]

18 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

I've had enough of keeping players for our identity. I like Foligno as a player but his comments and actions in playoffs were a detriment to the team. I understand they were terrible calls by the refs but you don't call them out and expect to get a fair game called next game. Call it politics, strategy or coaching we got played in the post game pressers by DeBoer.

Foligno lays lots of hits, but are we a team built to play a gritty game? Our defense is too small and our physical pool too shallow to get into blow for blow type games. I think it's time to shift the culture. Dallas is a similar mentality team that has the star power to go with the physicality yet is still proving to be lacking for the cup.

Watch Carolina, Florida or Vegas play. Does it look like they emphasis or prioritize grit and toughness? No. Carolina plays a very structured defensive game that would match well to our defense but not overly physical. Florida has lots of loud players that will get into gritty area but hardly focused on that in staffing. Vegas is a gritty team, but they have deep star power and are sitting way over the cap to get there. 

Show me the deep playoff team bringing in a enforcer every year. They don't. Every player on those teams has the capacity to score. They don't bring in big guys just for hitting, fighting or locker room presence. 

Gudas is Florida's biggest hitter(77) and plays 18 mins average. Followed by Bennett(62) and Tkachuk(54). These are players that bring something else to the table.

Carolina is Skjei(52), Fast(46) and Jarvis(42), all consistent contributors. Skjei plays 24 TOIA and Fast and Jarvis are both top 5 in points contribution.

Vegas is Kolesar, Barbie and Howden. Kolesar is a forth liner, still has 3 pts, but the other two are huge contributors in other ways as well.

Dallas is Hakanpaa, Marchment and Faksa. They are much more evenly hitting team than the above and do employ more specialized players as I highlighted above. 

We could ALL spend several paragraphs elaborating on the coaching aspect of the Wild....plain and simple we got outclassed and out coached and that will need to be our biggest CHANGE.

You build the system around the players you HAVE and ADJUST as needed. You dont force the players into a system that doesnt work for them or their talents.

You don't keep running your head into the same wall with the same technique over and over again thinking THAT'S JUST WHO WE ARE!!

[mnfaninnc]

On 5/26/2023 at 12:26 PM, vonlonster67 said:

Here's a flyer, Moose and our #1 in '23 to move up.

Thing is, I still want #21 in this draft. But I could give up both 2nds!

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, vonlonster67 said:

We could ALL spend several paragraphs elaborating on the coaching aspect of the Wild....plain and simple we got outclassed and out coached and that will need to be our biggest CHANGE.

You build the system around the players you HAVE and ADJUST as needed. You dont force the players into a system that doesnt work for them or their talents.

You don't keep running your head into the same wall with the same technique over and over again thinking THAT'S JUST WHO WE ARE!!

Absolutely! But, we did change this season. In '21-22 we were far more high flying with Kaprizov and Fiala saving the day at the end of games and winning it in OT. This season, they had to go more gritty and structured with Fiala missing. 

I'm not saying that Evason is a great coach, though, in the regular season, his stats would suggest he was. But he did change the gameplan with the guys we had (or did not have). That positionless hockey where the D were also involved in the offensive zone was missing quite a bit. 

But, we need that element of the heavy hitters in our lineup. I'd agree with whoever said Middleton needs to be more physical, and him throwing a couple of bombs would help. I think Reaves is the one we don't need going forward. Duhaime is the definite signing and he needs to have learned from Reaves and Foligno because he will soon be next up. In that vein, only Milne seems to be a guy in our system (possibly Bankier, and Ohgren who are at least 2 seasons away). 

 

[mnfaninnc]

19 hours ago, Protec said:

Anders Lee, Oshie, Tkachuk, Crieder, or Benn are the types you'd rather have. Of course, the Wild can't afford that tier players.

Yes they can, but, they've got to identify them before they become that type of player. Brackett's got to look for these guys in the draft. He is a draft guru, but, Guerin's got to let him know what he's looking for. Brackett tends to like these highly skilled, smooth skating, high IQ players where he doesn't pay attention to size and little to handedness. I think Billy G. has got to change that direction and add some size and aggressiveness to the equation. 

Brackett also has a track record of Euro guys. That needs changing too. Guerin can change that by putting a premium on NA players, or even WHL players if he wants to. But, the GM doesn't have to stay out of the meetings, he needs to communicate what they need! I'd have to assume that Guerin has already done this.

[vonlonster67]

2 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Thing is, I still want #21 in this draft. But I could give up both 2nds!

Our #21 (1st),  Moose and our late (2nd)#64  for Buffalo's (1st) #13 .....A Moose homecoming.

[vonlonster67]

2 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Absolutely! But, we did change this season. In '21-22 we were far more high flying with Kaprizov and Fiala saving the day at the end of games and winning it in OT. This season, they had to go more gritty and structured with Fiala missing. 

I'm not saying that Evason is a great coach, though, in the regular season, his stats would suggest he was. But he did change the gameplan with the guys we had (or did not have). That positionless hockey where the D were also involved in the offensive zone was missing quite a bit. 

But, we need that element of the heavy hitters in our lineup. I'd agree with whoever said Middleton needs to be more physical, and him throwing a couple of bombs would help. I think Reaves is the one we don't need going forward. Duhaime is the definite signing and he needs to have learned from Reaves and Foligno because he will soon be next up. In that vein, only Milne seems to be a guy in our system (possibly Bankier, and Ohgren who are at least 2 seasons away). 

 

Playoffs...Playoffs...Playoffs....no adaption for Deano......same old game plan

[mnfaninnc]

18 hours ago, vonlonster67 said:

Playoffs...Playoffs...Playoffs....no adaption for Deano......same old game plan

This, I think, is a different animal. I think it has to do with Evason's aversion to change. He can change, but it's a longterm thing, not a short term quick fix. 

In the playoffs, you have to make adjustments for the short term, sometimes even period to period. Evason does not have that in him, to this point. 

I get the passion for playoffs, but let's face it, this current roster is not good enough or far enough along in the transition to bring in the trophy coach. I'm not sure I even like the available coaches at this time. There is a possibility that after '23-24, our trophy coach could come on board, but why waste the money to replace Evason now? (even though it's not my money)

Evason is under contract through '24-25, he'd be a lame duck coach going into that season. I could see a replacement a year early as he'll likely be vying for a contract extension that season. He earned the last one, but I'd say after this past postseason he's had 2 2-1 advantages and his teams simply laid down and were eliminated. I suspect he doesn't make it into next offseason employed by the Wild if a similar result happens in '23-24. And, I suspect if we make it to the playoffs, he will be still shorthanded in talent.

[vonlonster67]

I'm envious when I watch these other playoff teams. Seems like they are all one step ahead of Deano

BG can't let this continue if he's gonna spend that $15 million on a center when this is all over. 

Good insight, Thx

[Willy the poor boy]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:33 PM, vonlonster67 said:

I'm envious when I watch these other playoff teams. Seems like they are all one step ahead of Deano

BG can't let this continue if he's gonna spend that $15 million on a center when this is all over. 

Good insight, Thx

And they're more than a step ahead on talent. Not to beat a dead horse, but where did you expect them to finish the last two seasons? 21-22 best record in franchise history, 22-23 fighting until the last week for the 1 spot in the division. 

They were clearly the better team in the Dallas series with much less talent. Be careful what you wish for.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Willy the poor boy

[vonlonster67]

1 hour ago, Willy the poor boy said:

And they're more than a step ahead on talent. Not to beat a dead horse, but where did you expect them to finish the last two seasons? 21-22 best record in franchise history, 22-23 fighting until the last week for the 1 spot in the division. 

They were clearly the better team in the Dallas series with much less talent. Be careful what you wish for.

And got outcoached in the playoffs, starting Flower 2nd game, playing Ek with a broken fibula, letting Moose go crazy with an "A" on his jersey.....regular season records means nothing in the playoffs