Article: Gauging Marco Rossi's Trade Value Entering the Summer

[Tony Abbott]

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[MNCountryLife]

Good/Interesting article.  A 17 pick would be fantastic... although no prospect is guaranteed.  I am not a fan of Rossi's play.  Most of my comments about him have not been flattering.  I will admit he certainly has skill with the puck and he has put up solid numbers in the AHL.  I have to remind myself he is still only 21 years old.  If he can up his level of play on the boards and improve his body positioning on defense to match his skill level with the puck he could still develop into a very solid center. 

I do like the idea of him training in MN.  Hopefully this off season is better than the last.  Would be great to see him develop into a well rounded center.

[WheelSnipeCelly]

Obviously there's no way to get Bedard, Fantilli, Michkov, but would one of the other highly ranked centers be obtainable (Carlsson, Smith, Danielson, Dvorsky, etc), by bundling our 1st round pick + Rossi (or Addison) to move up the draft board? Not sure which team would be interested or could be convinced, but is that a possibility?

[Imyourhuckleberry]

Hard to know what Rossi can accomplish at the NHL level, but he still has a lot of time to develop. 9th overall selection, Mikael Granlund, was producing in the NHL at the age Rossi is, but he was playing a lot with Jason Pominville, who had 6 straight seasons scoring 20-34 goals prior to joining Granlund's line, and Granlund finished the season getting quite a few points with Parise, who also had put up multiple 30-goal seasons by then.

I understand Guerin and Evason not making it easy for the youngster, and the extra effort to build his game and increase aggressiveness is well warranted. Given the year off back in 2020-2021, it wouldn't be shocking if he were a year behind Granlund in development. Now, if they let Rossi play with some goal scorers, he might be able to post some NHL points as well.

In no way is this meant to disparage Connor Dewar or other guys who see regular 4th line minutes, but many of them haven't scored 20+ goals in an NHL season. Players certainly can fail organizations, and organizations can fail players. Hopefully they both are committed to making this work, resulting in a top 6 forward, whether that is center or a wing.

Rossi is a play maker more than he is a goal scorer, similar to Granlund or Zuccarello. Not playing goal scorers on his line is setting him up to fail, and I'm fine with them doing that to this point, because it could result in faster growth than if they try to optimize his line to best suit his game. Rossi likely has a lot more to offer and in a good situation, after working to improve his strength, we likely see a lot more from him.

If they trade him for a good return, I'm not going to be overly upset, but I suspect it's more likely they trade Addison than Rossi. They probably don't want to roster both of them given their small stature and failure to play with any real physicality to this point.

Sammy Walker, Nic Petan, and Adam Beckman likely were more NHL ready last year. Hopefully Rossi comes back stronger and ready to handle the step up in 2023-24.

[Protec]

^^^

Let's hope so for the sake of the Wild's best overall pick since Dumba in 2012. Well I for one have been questioning the decision from the start and highlighting the irony. Minnesota who has clamored for big powerful centers for so long, complain that we never get a top pick only to get a top 10 selection and use it on the littlest Euro player possible.

Now some are saying to just wait longer while players from the same draft are well on their way to NHL careers. Is anyone really surprised Euro players have less blue collar guts, toughness, and drive to compete or battle adversity?(Like Shaw.) I mean if you wanna see an example of an organization losing sight of the forest for the trees, this is it. Play it safe for Kunin over Thompson = fail. Reach for Hanzal, then Fphilip Johhannsson for a net-zero over those first rounds in 2017 & 18 missing out on players who are now sticking it to ya. Then deviate from the plan when Rossi fell to 9th ignoring the obvious concerns of many other teams.

Rossi getting myocarditis at the same time experimental vaccines came out and being from Austria where mandates were rolling out and travel was requiring it sucks. The first concern for Rossi's health of course, but what does it mean for the Wild in terms of their opportunity to get a nice center in a strong draft class? It's been a recipe for disaster for the Wild. They got sucker'd because Rossi scored a ton of OHL points and fans were all crying the Wild didn't pick Caufield. What could go wrong DID go wrong and in that moment the Wild probably thought they were fine.

If Brackett is such a "Guru", how come Vancouver is garbage? I mean what was so impressive about Brackett, he picked Elias Petterrsson? Taking elite Swedes isn't guruing if you asked me. Last I checked the league are 70% North American so why do draft gurus have to prove so hard they're expert diamond-in-the-rough finders? To quote Billy "Eff that!!!" Pick the kinds of players that have the best odds of making it and that doesn't include little Euro guys. It never has. I've challenged people to cite examples of little Euro studs and Fiala who is bigger, heavier, older, and more dynamic who's proving himself in the NHL is the only name I've heard. Zuccarello is capable of good things but where is that when it counts? Is he driving the Kaprizov line??? Hockey hotbed Austria ya know. Nice researching Guru-Brackett, remember when you picked Olli Juolevi instead of Matthew Tkachuk??? I do and I think we should all agree that is stupid. Kinda makes my point with great emphasis. Top Guruism...

Trade Rossi and Addison. Admit they are not the answer and move on. When you make mistakes, identify the issues and correct the path. The Wild took the risk. Now the results are not good because these player's perceived values are down, not up. Take the L, move on and get better. Perhaps there's a GM out there who thinks he's a guru too. Get what you can before it's too late and you have nothing but average players who've got injury and entitlement issues. Keep watching the 2020 picks who are competing in the playoffs and learn the lesson. Most NHL players are from where again??? (Rhetorical question but not Austria, let's throw another shrimp on the barbey.) 

How many little guys from North America did well in the NHL, even reaching HOF status and winning Cups? More than Europe that's for damn sure. Facts aren't biased against Europeans. Gaborik screwed the WIld and ended up with a buttload of money while MN got soaked. Eventually he won a cup with LA on a stacked team that had toughness and talent balanced but Gaborik didn't lead that team. Sure there's Euro exceptions but they're few and far between most are soft and regulary injured. Plus what do hockey fans like about certain Euro guys? When they play NA style hockey. Forsberg the tough, reverse-checking elite Swede. Kasparitis who blasts guys with hippers then fights anybody who didn't like it. Bobby Holik who was big and nasty. Remember him GMBG??? Timid little Euro guys should play hockey in soft, entitled environments in Europe.

Brackett has taken just one NA player out of FIVE first rounders since he's been around. If you include the 2nd round he's taken four North American players for MN bringing the 1st & 2nd round totals to five North American guys of the 10 total picks and two of them were defensemen. If 50% of the NHL was international guys I'd say, "no problem". Considering that it's not I'd say that's a losing strategy but what do I know? Just wait longer and give them time to develop while Carolina, New Jersey, Seattle, and Florida are all in the second round and the Wild are getting ready for fishing opener wondering when all their international prospects will be NHL-ready. Three drafts down since GMBG & Brackett and zero first or second round players are in the NHL. Keep up the good work, we'll be waiting.

[Protec]

Actually I reviewed what I just posted and Brackett should be fired.

Billy Guerin - See above persuasive argument and either fire Brackett or make a no-more Euro policy keeping that guy on a short-leash.

[Quebec1648]

Guerin had prior knowledge of Addison from his time in the Penguins organization. Therefore, Guerin should have known what he was getting when he made the Zucker trade. Either Addison is not the same player he was with the Penguins, or the Wild messed up in trading for him.

There is no benefit to the Wild in keeping a player the coach / GM have lost faith in, so make a trade and get whatever you can.

In regards to Rossi, I would give him another season. We don't know for sure, how his health issues have affected his development, but the Wild don't seem to be helping him all that much. When they did call him up, he got mostly 4th line minutes, and was never really put in a position to succeed.

The Iowa Wild coaching staff was let go, so maybe things will change when the new coaches are selected.

Something has gone wrong with the teams player development and change is needed.

[Protec]

Quote

Something has gone wrong with the teams player development and change is needed.

You mean the Bombardir, McLeod, Hendricks program? Pumping up the grit...

[TCMooch]

If Wild trade Rossi, I hope it means a death sentence to the Wild careers of both Guerin and Evason. Both were on board as GM and HC during the 2020 NHL draft so Rossi is their pick.

It would be an absolute fucking crapshow if they turn and try to trade him now. Honestly, Evason needs to pull his head from his butt and start playing and trusting these young guys. It seems the Wild have always had issues developing players at the NHL level and I don't know where the problem is. We once had the most highly rated prospect pool in the early 2010's and other than Brodin they all mostly turned into bottom pairing forwards and dmen.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

Trying to actively agitate a player then being mad that they have a level head in their development is possibly the worst development tactic I have ever seen. How does it help him develop to hate his boss? Instead of telling him what you want out of his game you fuck him around hoping to piss him off? What a joke. If that is how BG and DE run things, I am done with them. How can Rossi be almost a PPG player in the AHL then come up here and do nothing? By putting him with weak talent, giving him no ice time per game and then asking why he isn't performing. 

BG and DE are clowns, who don't know how to develop a player past screwing them around and actively trying to piss them off. They like the tough guys, chase the skill players out then complain we can't score goals. Sorry but their formula isn't a winning one. Name me one SC team that has a notable lack of skill but brings all the "grit" and I will eat my words. I'm tired of them chasing talented players out of Minn while bringing in pensioners because they are old buddies. 3.5 on a backup next year? 2.1 on a perpetual AHLer for five years at 30 years old? The Goligoski extension? Bringing in the "scary" but useless Reaves?

I know we have to bargin bin pretty hard right now, but it sure would be nice to have that 3.5 back from our 38yr old goalie who gets blown up in playoffs. I would rather take younger AHLers and give them a shot to grow and expand but instead they keep some of our best prospects in Iowa because they don't yell and scream when FO screws them around. They would rather have a pensioner like Reaves on the ice because he is good for the "room". Meanwhile they tell Addison there is no space for specialists?

Enough of the double standard for the pensioners. Enough of the "earn your playing time" that only applies to those they deem unworthy. Enough of "it's about winning" then tells us in the PS presser that our expectations were high and they were happy just to be at the show, not participate. I'm done with DE's tough guy act while he "stays out of the room" because "they say all the right things". That's your job Dean. Maybe a little coaching could help us make it through the first round for once. Or in lieu of making the playoffs, develop someone ffs. I don't think DE and BG are the ones to take us to a cup, cap hit or not. I also don't think they are the ones to develop our prospect pool. Blame Army all you want after you fired him, but the kids sure seem to develop well in Iowa until they get to the Wild and become the scapegoat for Creed.  

[Quebec1648]

4 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

Trying to actively agitate a player then being mad that they have a level head in their development is possibly the worst development tactic I have ever seen. How does it help him develop to hate his boss? Instead of telling him what you want out of his game you fuck him around hoping to piss him off? What a joke. If that is how BG and DE run things, I am done with them. How can Rossi be almost a PPG player in the AHL then come up here and do nothing? By putting him with weak talent, giving him no ice time per game and then asking why he isn't performing. 

BG and DE are clowns, who don't know how to develop a player past screwing them around and actively trying to piss them off. They like the tough guys, chase the skill players out then complain we can't score goals. Sorry but their formula isn't a winning one. Name me one SC team that has a notable lack of skill but brings all the "grit" and I will eat my words. I'm tired of them chasing talented players out of Minn while bringing in pensioners because they are old buddies. 3.5 on a backup next year? 2.1 on a perpetual AHLer for five years at 30 years old? The Goligoski extension? Bringing in the "scary" but useless Reaves?

I think we need more clarification on who is in charge of calling guys up from Iowa. Was it Dean Evason refusing to give Rossi a chance, or was it Guerin?

In regards to bad contracts or trades, I place all the blame on Guerin. Maybe Evason makes suggestions on potential roster moves, but Guerin is the GM.

The coaches job is to take the players he has, and try to win as many games as possible. Evason is making mistakes with player development and should be held accountable, but I want to know more about who is actually making the final decisions.

This chaos will continue, until the owner decides he has had enough.

Perhaps this chaos, is why some draft picks were refusing to sign with the Wild.

[Protec]

Quote

Trying to actively agitate a player then being mad that they have a level head in their development is possibly the worst development tactic I have ever seen.

I think this isn't really a tactic as much as an observation related to Rossi's reaction. You could be right, but I'm not sure there's an effort to antagonize prospects. If that was the case, I would probably agree that's not the best way to motivate guys. However, the old saying goes, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going." After all that is what the Wild have always needed but manage to excuse their failures while somebody else presses on to win despite adversity of their own. Or with such fortitude that adversity seems to take on a different definition for those teams.

Quote

Perhaps this chaos, is why some draft picks were refusing to sign with the Wild.

I think this is a lesser issue. The Wild haven't lost any serious prospects. McBain the big center was a guy the Wild had high hopes for I suppose but not really part of a bigger trend or horrible environment. If a guy wants the easier, more certain path to an NHL career, I wouldn't blame them. Arizona slapped that guy right in there where in MN he would've likely been lower on the totem-pole within the organization with better depth.

My biggest thing is that when things don't work out the dilemma is to move or or stick with it. It's obvious at this point that Rossi at 9th isn't in the top 20 guys from his draft class. Sure he might be the best of the AHLers but is it really fair to blame development on the club? Do we really think Rossi would be blowing doors if he was on a top line against the NHL's best? Just taking a guy who's young and done nothing in the NHL and demote established NHL players to plug in a little Euro finesse guy who doesn't play the body and isn't known for speed or "grit". I am with Guerin and Evason on this one. I mean, show us something and help justify the opportunity. That's a fair ask, and I don't believe the Wild haven't made clear what they want from players like Addison or Rossi. We all know what they need to do. Somehow they're confused just doesn't make a great argument but it's been thrown around while criticizing Rossi & Addison's development.

Let's just pretend the Wild try it this year. Put Rossi on the top lines. If he stinks, that's it, over, cooked, he's gonna need a change of scenery trade to somebody who thinks they can make it work and you won't get much. If they wait and slowly integrate him into the lineup it might work and your organization gets some value. Can Rossi ever hope to climb back towards the top of the best players from his draft class to make good of his 9th overall selection??? Maybe but the more time that passes while Lundell, and Jarvis get closer to a Stanley Cup the Rossi odds are going down. My .02 cents.

[Beast]

I think everyone just needs to take a deep breath on Rossi.  He’s a 21 year old, who missed over a full year of development, scoring a point per game in the AHL at center.  Those are not discouraging results.  He may or may not make it, we may not think his game will translate, etc….but we can’t write him off yet.  Trading him for peanuts now would be stupid.

Bringing him up and yanking him between the press box and 4th line was an idiotic development strategy for a top line center prospect.  That’s unacceptable, and did nothing to bring Rossi along.  He should’ve gotten an extended look in the top 6 or left in Iowa.  

I’ll be more comfortable making a call by the end of next year.  Different styles of play, but it took Ek a while to develop also.  There were people who wrote him off too early (complaints about not drafting player X instead).  Hopefully, at the very least, he can turn himself into a serviceable middle of the rotation center.

[mnfaninnc]

Here is the draft profile of Marco Rossi:

Quote

Marco Rossi's Player Profile

Marco Rossi - Dobber Prospects - Sept. 30th: "His high hockey IQ in all three zones combined with an unmatched work ethic means he is able to force turnovers and create plays in transition at a high level."

Scott Wheeler - The Athletic - Sept. 21st: "He plays in the middle of the ice but knows when to take the outside lane. And he’s the best defensive forward in the draft. Some evaluators point to his height and question whether he’ll stick at centre, his natural position."

Mike Morreale - NHL.com - Aug. 25th: "He is capable of winning puck battles, is strong on face-offs (58.5 winning percentage) and generates offense with his high hockey IQ, good hands and playmaking ability."

Adam Kimelman - NHL.com - Aug. 25th: "Rossi led all CHL players with 120 points (39 goals, 81 assists) in 56 games. He willingly goes to the net to produce offense, and his high hockey IQ makes him a solid two-way player who can kill penalties."

Steve Kourmianos - The Draft Analyst - Aug. 10th: "Rossi’s vision and IQ are off the charts, but he also owns a deadly shot and was one of the leagues better two-way centers. The size thing may seem like a turn off but watch him play and it becomes completely irrelevant."

Chris Peters - ESPN - June 30th: "Rossi has become oddly polarizing. His 2.14 points per game in the OHL ranks fifth among players 18 years old or younger over the past 20 years, but many have rushed to underplay that production because of the quality of his team and the relative weakness of the OHL's Eastern Conference."

Sam Cosentino - Sportsnet - June 25th: "Highly competitive, super smart, easily coached and a strong lower half that should make up for perceived size issues."

Ryan Kennedy - The Hockey News - May 11th: "Rossi can pile up points while maintaining a responsible side. He plays the right way and if teams avoid him because of his height, they’ll regret it his entire NHL career."

Jordan Deshane - The Hockey Writers - May 11th: "Don’t let his shorter stature fool you. He’s built like Sidney Crosby from the waist down. He is hard on the puck and cannot be knocked off easily. In addition to his elite offensive game, Rossi plays hard in the defensive zone and has a sound all-around presence while also playing on the edge like the much-beloved Brad Marchand."

Sam Cosentino - Sportsnet - Apr. 8th: "Has been cemented in the fifth spot all season long. He’s smart, competes hard and has a drive to continuously get better."

NHL Central Scouting analysis - NHL.com - Apr. 3rd: "He's a highly skilled offensive player who is equally dangerous creating plays and finishing scoring chances. Rossi is an excellent skater, solid on his skates and difficult to knock off the puck, and he can make plays off the rush or in tight areas. He demonstrates a strong cycle game, can extend plays in the offensive zone and can beat defenders with speed or with an impressive set of moves."

Cam Robinson - Dobber Prospects - Apr. 1st: "One of the elder statesmen of the class gives up size but makes up for it in skill. Has the ability to drop-jaws with his puck skills. A duel-threat off of the rush or set up. A monster on the man-advantage."

Mike G. Morreale - NHL.com - Mar. 20th: "The Austria-born left-shot forward led all players in the Canadian Hockey League with 120 points (39 goals, 81 assists) in 56 games, and his average of 2.14 points per game is second. Despite his size he's capable of winning 50/50 puck battles, is strong on face-offs (58.5 winning percentage) and generates offense with his high hockey IQ, good hands and playmaking ability."

Does this sound at all like the player we have seen? It doesn't look like the player I've seen in the highlight packages of the A. He's got an elite profile.

A couple of things that stand out are his skating, how hard he is to knock off the puck, the strong lower body, and he did possess speed. What happened?

Supposedly he had a great work ethic. Supposedly he was easy to coach. I would expect him to be very respectful of those in charge. European players from that area do not have emotional meltdowns over playing time, that's not how they are brought up.

This has been my problem with Rossi the past 2 years. In '21-22 we cheered the almost PPG stats. This past season, we got impatient as he had to repeat a year, like he flunked 6th grade or something. 

I want to see the player listed on this scouting report with several professionals who saw him play and wrote this. I have not seen this player, not even the ghost of this player. When I see his stature, it does not suggest elite lower body strength. When I see him get plowed, it doesn't say hard to knock off the puck. I feel like we got a bait and switch at the draft table.  Did someone not spell his name right? 

Or, could the myocarditis have changed his personality? Could he in the back of his mind think that he can't go into high gear? Is he scared to cut loose? Does he need a sports psychologist? Did he lose so much strength in the time off that he still hasn't gotten back to where he was physically? Has he lost the will to compete?

I saw a glimmer of hope at the end of this season, both here and in the A. A strong offseason workout plan, possibly with Ek would go a long ways in helping him re-establish himself. He was 183 at the draft, for a 5'9" guy, that is a little stocky. He should have gotten to 190 on filling out. That would be enough for a guy that height to play bigger.  

[Protec]

Ek started slow but there was flashes of skill and a progression. He sniped his first one for the Wild within a handful of games after being in the NHL. He had no identity or role at that time other than to be responsible on defense. I remember complaints about his offense. This could be said of Rossi too but the size won't change too much. Speed could improve and yes he's young. I think there's potential he can still be good but will he ever be as good as he appeared to be coming off a huge OHL season? I think the biggest uncertainty and pitfall is whether to trade him too soon or for crummy return or to keep him and bet he's gonna translate to NHL hockey where if it fizzles you have nothing there like a Juolevi who Brackett picked ahead of Matthew Tkachuk and is now an AHLer for ANA I believe. Therefore Brackett has proven he can totally blow it with a top 10 pick. I would say the crossroads is now. It's the Wild's assessment VS. another team in a trade situation or a Wild commitment that essentially is the point of no return for Rossi making it or having his value tank worse.

No matter what Rossi has to make up ground to be close to the best from his draft class as an NHL player. A lot of ground. His AHL stuff is great but Gerry Mayhew had great AHL stats. Never made an impact in the NHL. Walker, Shaw, and Beckman, all North American guys had better eye-test results in the NHL. Work ethic and compete are NOT the same thing. Rossi is a good kid but does he have the necessary drive or compete? I think that's a major thing coaches and GM is looking for. Hence the comments about Rossi not getting pissed-off. Personally, I believe GMBG drops those hints like he did with Fiala or Talbot because he's already made up his mind and it's a way to soften the reactions to come when the player gets traded.

[Tony Abbott]

5 hours ago, Protec said:

No matter what Rossi has to make up ground to be close to the best from his draft class as an NHL player. A lot of ground. His AHL stuff is great but Gerry Mayhew had great AHL stats. Never made an impact in the NHL. 

Hold up there. Mayhew had great stats when he was like 26. When he was 21, he was barely a half point per game guy as an old freshman at Ferris State. Huuuuuuge difference.

[Will D. Ness]

I don't think this team is in a position to not stick with Rossi.  It's not like there are other feasible options with more upside.

Sure Rossi looked deer in the headlights last season and seemed passive, but a little confidence will go a long way for a kid his age.  If the skill is there (of which I really haven't seen) then you gotta go with Rossi next year... especially if the return is only a late rd 1st.

[Protec]

^^^ 

Sure it's not apples = apples with the comparison but the game not translating is a real possibility. Since 2010 each draft class has top 10 players that haven't panned out so to speak. I.e. didn't meet expectations like Yakupov who had a crazy season for Sarnia in the OHL. Brackett didn't take Matthew Tkachuk, but rather got a Finnish defenseman who has never made the NHL.

I think it's totally appropriate to  question the pick aside from Rossi's heart injury. Size, no grit, heart injury is three strikes for me. Then add Brackett's history and the eye-test along with what three of the players we all had a bullseye on that Summer scoring playoff goals now. It's pretty obvious the Wild could have done better AND have good reason to believe it could fizzle.

I hope it turns for the better but I also don't think it's gonna. Eight teams didn't think Rossi was gonna be the best future NHL player they could get. Why is that if he was truly a top 5 sure thing?

Personally, I had way higher expectations for the Wild from that draft. Lundell was Koivu's replacement so obviously it's not even funny and Jarvis was right there too with Perfetti and Mercer who had proved a lot with Team Canada. 

The Wild will wait forever for everything it seems. I don't wanna be conditioned that way. Eff that Billy! Just be patient defines being a Wild fan.

[WheelSnipeCelly]

I’m wondering with this last season being the best playoff opportunity for the next couple seasons, before the buyouts jump up another +2M and Boldy's new contract kicks in, Guerin / Evason had to be focused on the now (current season, ticket sales, and making it to the playoffs), opposed to the future (developing players). Clearly seen with brining in and playing more established players (Mojo, Merrill, Klingberg, and even Steel), over the younger less developed players (Rossi and Addison). Ideally, it would have been a foot in both the now and the f, but potentially the next two seasons can be better balanced, alluded by Army's contract not being renewed.

I'm exciting/hopeful about the Iowa coach successor. Despite Army's mediocre success these past 5 seasons (both during the regular season and playoffs), I'm somewhat surprised since it felt like Army was also trying to push the "grit first" mentality in Iowa. I'm hoping Guerin's able to find a replacement that is truly able to help develop the Wild's prospects. That seems to be a pain point in the Wild's system for the last decade. Most successful Wild players typically are developed elsewhere (college, KHL, SHL, etc.). 

As much as "grit first" is a catchy slogan, it feels like it somewhat limiting and greatly deemphasizes skill. If anything, balancing grit, determination, teamwork, and skill would be ideal. Cup contenders aren't made up of solely gritty players. Typically, they have elite players driving the plays setting the tone night in and night out. Yes, having skilled players with grit (Tkachuk) is a desired combination, but it's about knowing your players skillsets, where they can best be utilized, and finding out who they have the best chemistry with. 

Not to overly simplify it, but there's something to the GM Mode in EA Sports NHL 2011 (I'm sure this still exists, but haven't played it since), where you need a balance of players, and can re-arrange your lines to increase your team's chemistry and value by mixing snipers/shooters, with playmakers and power forwards. Having a team/line entirely made up of power forwards actually brings your compete-level and score down. 

That all being said, I'm hoping they give Rossi + Addison another season / chance to develop and make an impact. As so many have pointed out, we would be giving up too soon and selling low. Hoping both are putting in the effort/work this summer and are able to make an immediate impact next season.