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  • The Wild and Hockey World Are Overthinking It With Marco Rossi


    Image courtesy of Nick Wosika - Imagn Images
    Tony Abbott

    The Marco Rossi Discourse has officially detached itself from reality. 

    We just saw the Florida Panthers build a dynasty on a foundation rehabilitating former top-10 picks that were unhappy, coming off a down year, or both. Sam Reinhart (No. 2 overall in 2014), Seth Jones (No. 4 in 2013), Sam Bennett (No. 4 in 2014), and Matthew Tkachuk (No. 6 in 2016). They made bets -- sometimes massive bets -- on top talent and hoped their organization would figure it out.

    This is a copycat league, as they say. Yet, as the Minnesota Wild's top-six center is coming off a career-high 60-point season at the age of 23, no one seems to want him particularly badly. Least of all, as much as GM Bill Guerin has tried to downplay it, the historically center-starved Wild, who've been rumored to be looking at trading him for the last two summers. Or three, since he might be on the move this week.

    Whether trying to low-ball Guerin on a player he doesn't seem particularly committed to, similarly worried about his size, or scared off by the fact that the Wild demoted and kept him on the fourth line in the playoffs, teams aren't biting.

    The Vancouver Canucks are believed to have only offered the 15th overall pick in tonight's draft for him. Meanwhile, the Buffalo Sabres apparently turned down an offer of Marco Rossi and "another roster player and/or prospects and picks" for JJ Peterka, according to The Athletic's Michael Russo.

    Instead, Buffalo flipped Peterka for 25-year-old Michael Kesselring and 23-year-old Josh Doan. Combined, the two players have a career 4.9 Standings Points Above Replacement in 218 games, per Evolving-Hockey. That's just barely more than Rossi had over 82 games last season (4.4 SPAR).

    We don't specifically know what was offered alongside Rossi, of course, and Kesselring being a right-shot defenseman does fill a need. Still... what are we doing here? We're living in Bizarro World when it comes to Rossi. 

    The Athletic's Shayna Goldman, one of the brightest minds in hockey analysis, wrote about the apprehensions teams may have for Rossi:

    Issue number two revolves around whether Rossi can drive his own line or is just a passenger to Kirill Kaprizov. ... These two do mesh well together. In 407 five-on-five minutes together this year, the Wild earned a 57 percent expected goal rate and outscored opponents 24-16. Rossi was still above break-even in expected and actual goals without Kaprizov, but wasn’t as in control.

    No one on earth is going to suggest that Kaprizov isn't the primary driving force on any line he's on. Kaprizov carries the puck and can do dynamic things with it as a playmaker or shooter. We've seen Kaprizov elevate Mats Zuccarello, Ryan Hartman, Joel Eriksson Ek, and Matt Boldy. It's ludicrous to say that Rossi isn't benefiting from Kaprizov when the two are on the ice together.

    Still, that doesn't mean that Rossi can't drive play in his own right. We have a growing amount of evidence that he does drive play.

    407 minutes with Kaprizov at 5-on-5 means that Rossi played 815 minutes without Kaprizov. During that time, Rossi still managed to out-score opponents 32-27 (54% goal share) with a 52.8% expected goal share. That includes a long stretch of the season when Kaprizov was injured -- and remember, this was not a good team without Kaprizov.

    From Christmas until Kaprizov's permanent return on April 9, the Wild were 29th in goal share (43.5%) and 25th in expected goal share (47.5%). During that time, Rossi was above-water in goal share (54.6%) and expected goal share (51.2%). Among Wild forwards, only Ryan Hartman and the heavily sheltered Vinnie Hinostroza could claim to be above water in both categories.

    Rossi's season wasn't a product of playing with a superstar. He consistently made other players better, almost to a person. When you examine what players did with and without Rossi, it's impossible not to notice a pattern.

    Minnesota Wild Forwards, 2024-25
    With and Without Rossi at 5-on-5

    Mats Zuccarello

    Time On Ice With vs WO: 651 / 407
    GF% With vs WO: 56.2 / 41.0
    xGF% With vs WO: 52.7 / 44.1

    Matt Boldy 

    TOI With vs WO: 559 / 695
    GF% With vs WO: 57.2 / 48.4
    xGF% With vs WO: 52.0 / 53.7

    Kirill Kaprizov

    TOI With vs WO: 408 / 317
    GF% With vs WO: 60.4 / 57.6
    xGF% With vs WO: 57.4 / 52.7

    Marcus Johansson

    TOI With vs WO: 191 / 831
    GF% With vs WO: 62.4 / 42.6
    xGF% With vs WO: 57.5 / 46.6

    Marcus Foligno

    TOI With vs WO: 185 / 755
    GF% With vs WO: 57.5 / 53.1
    xGF% With vs WO: 63.7 / 54.6

    Ryan Hartman

    TOI With vs WO: 159 / 745
    GF% With vs WO: 60.1 / 47.6
    xGF% With vs WO: 55.4 / 50.8

    That's everyone who played 100-plus 5-on-5 minutes with Rossi last year. The only player who didn't see a bump in both their actual and expected goal share was Boldy, who finished only slightly higher in xGF% without Rossi at center. It's a difficult pattern to deny.

    It makes sense, then, that Goldman's article included this graphic, which shows just how strong Rossi's game is at both ends of the ice:

    image.png

    And again, it feels like we're in Bizarro World. How can the Wild doubt his play and the results to this degree? Why are they stubbornly refusing to pay more than $5 million AAV for a player who's asking for $7 million and whose market value is over $8 million? There's a bargain to be had for seven or eight years!

    Take it! How is this hard?!

    Now it seems like Guerin has not only Galaxy Brained himself on this, but the NHL might be, too. Teams may be waiting for July 1 to snipe Rossi with an offer sheet that Minnesota would be unwilling to match. Still, if a team like Buffalo is passing on Rossi and more in a trade, then maybe the lack of trade interest is real. We'll find out in the coming days. 

    Whatever the resolution, though, this has been an incredibly bizarre series of events for Rossi. Any other center at his age -- with his production, work ethic, and character -- would never hit the market. And if they did, teams would be lining up to improve their center depth with a talented, goal-scoring, point-producing center.

    Here we are, though, with Rossi on the market and teams saying "Pass."

    It'd be one thing if Rossi hadn't proven he could hang at the position. But he has! Yet, from what we know today, it's done almost nothing for his stock, inside and outside the organization. We're going past this situation being an irrational farce and heading to the point where we completely break with reality. Whoever is first to come to their senses is going to get a hell of a player on a great deal, and the State of Hockey should be hoping it's Guerin.

    Think you could write a story like this? Hockey Wilderness wants you to develop your voice, find an audience, and we'll pay you to do it. Just fill out this form.

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    Thanks for the article Tony! Something to consider with these numbers: Ek only played 46 games last season. For nearly half the season, "without" would mean playing with either Gadreau or Hartman. 

     

     

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    Playing Rossi on the 4th line in the playoffs (for whatever reason) seems to have tainted his value. And now Rossi wants to get paid big bucks or be traded out of Minnesota because he won’t likely be used in the top 6 (that’d drive down his market value).

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    Just sign the guy and be done with this stupid saga.  The Sabres did the Wild a favor, and getting rid of Gaudreau opened up some cash to sign both Rossi AND Boeser/Ehlers.  None of this stops Yurov or Ohgren from making the team next year.  If Yurov outplays Rossi after that, fine.

    This really shouldn't have been so hard.  Due diligence is fine, but Kap, Rossi, Top 6 wing, fucking done...overthinking is right.

     

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    Great article for dispersing the opinion that Rossi only produced with Kap, or only because of the players around him. 

    I hope they find a number that Rossi will be happy with, as he will be worth it. Every indication is Rossi is not at his ceiling, yet we are willing to pay 7 to Boeser or Tavares that both produced less than him last year, are already at their ceiling, and in Boeser's case, is a liability defensively. 

    Three years ago in a flat cap enviroment, he would not have commanded a contract of that size but we aren't in three years ago land. The cap is rising rapidly now and contracts will be inflated. 

    With the current talent available, I'm leaning towards hold our card for TDL. Unless we are making a trade, there is not much left to be had in a weird offseason where every team has decided they are done rebuilding.

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    Reminds me of when they signed Kaprizov last time. People flipping out because the deal wasn't getting done early, but in the end, Guerin signed him to a deal that made sense for both sides.

    It makes plenty of sense not to simply acquiesce to the agent's starting point, particularly when they have very little leverage...

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    In an environment in which there expects to be a higher and higher cap year over year--signing him long term to a cost controlled $7 million over 5-6 years is not insane for a young center that is scoring 60 points.

    Also, unlike most of our team lately--he at least stays healthy for now.

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    Show me these bastards that want Rossi gone! Argh!

    We need to keep him at all costs! He is better than Kaprizov. He is better than Tkachuk. He is better than ..... Eichel..... 🤔

    Remember this article? You wanted to keep Rossi instead of using him to get Eichel. That turned out well..... Let's pretend that we could have gotten that deal done - but you blocked it. 

    So let's pump the breaks a bit on knowing exactly what needs to be done - "don't overthink this world - keep Rossi - sign him and retire him"......

    Facts are - Rossi had a bad end of the year. He was unplayable and had to be given sheltered minutes in the PO to cover up his weaknesses. He could not be iced out with top 6 because he would be destroyed by physical players from Vegas. So they gave him "easier minutes" - he meshed well enough and was a beneficiary of Trenin brilliance. Good for them both. But that is done. 

    The lack of interest is directly representative of Rossi's value. It matters little if he played on 4th line and was devalued as some say (disagree - he was where he deserved to be and the primary goal was to win a series, not showcase or help out Rossi by pairing him with Kap and Boldy) - in fact the smarter GMs should jump on the chance to buy low on such a stud. But he is not a stud. League is saying that clearly but you still say NO. You made a mistake before by saying he was untouchable. That cost us. It has a chance to do the same. We need to to cut him loose and worry about Kaprizov and his timeline first. Stop obsessing over tiny Rossi. 

    https://zonecoverage.com/2021/wild/marco-rossi-is-the-only-untouchable-prospect-in-a-jack-eichel-trade/

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    5 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    Show me these bastards that want Rossi gone! Argh!

    We need to keep him at all costs! He is better than Kaprizov. He is better than Tkachuk. He is better than ..... Eichel..... 🤔

    Remember this article? You wanted to keep Rossi instead of using him to get Eichel. That turned out well..... Let's pretend that we could have gotten that deal done - but you blocked it. 

    https://zonecoverage.com/2021/wild/marco-rossi-is-the-only-untouchable-prospect-in-a-jack-eichel-trade/

    Buffalo got Alex Tuch, Peyton Krebs, and a first for Eichel. They weren't going to need to trade Rossi to make that deal.

    And the root of wanting to keep Rossi now is for the same reason as it was then: You need numbers to build a great center group. Don't swap a center for another, put together elite depth down the middle.

    This isn't the gotcha you think it is.

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    1 minute ago, Tony Abbott said:

    Buffalo got Alex Tuch, Peyton Krebs, and a first for Eichel. They weren't going to need to trade Rossi to make that deal.

    And the root of wanting to keep Rossi now is for the same reason as it was then: You need numbers to build a great center group. Don't swap a center for another, put together elite depth down the middle.

    This isn't the gotcha you think it is.

    this was not just a center for a center. you specified Rossi as untouchable in that trade (elite? no Rossi is not that) to bring a difference maker in, thinking Rossi was going to be that soon. He is not. 

    Ek + Rossi + Pick for Eichel would have been enough. You then have Boldy Kap and Eichel to build off.

    The point was to be careful at saying that your thoughts are the only right ones. You were wrong about Rossi before. Eichel is a monster of a player, whereas Rossi is still wearing diapers on the ice. 

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    2 minutes ago, Tony Abbott said:

    Hell, judging by recent events, it sounds like Kevyn Adams would have preferred my suggestion (Boldy) for Eichel, anyway.

    "Again, I am right in my analysis."

    you always are right.....no question there

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    3 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    Ek + Rossi + Pick for Eichel would have been enough. You then have Boldy Kap and Eichel to build off.

    There's more to disagree with but right away:

    Eichel
    Hartman
    Gaudreau

    down the middle isn't getting you to the first round, let alone past it.

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    5 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    Ek + Rossi + Pick for Eichel would have been enough. You then have Boldy Kap and Eichel to build off.

    I agree with you that getting Eichel would have been great.  But the point of Tony's article isn't that Rossi is better than Eichel.  It was, to my understanding anyway, that you don't include Rossi so you can build your center depth and have three quality and possibly elite centers instead of two.  I am sure your above trade proposal of Ek, Rossi and a prospect would have been enough, but then where are we for centers?  

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    1 minute ago, Tony Abbott said:

    There's more to disagree with but right away:

    Eichel
    Hartman
    Gaudreau

    down the middle isn't getting you to the first round, let alone past it.

    You can build a better core with your top trio of Kap, Boldy and Eichel

    The focus was just on the transaction itself

    You were against including Rossi in a deal for Eichel

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    3 minutes ago, SkolWild73 said:

    I agree with you that getting Eichel would have been great.  But the point of Tony's article isn't that Rossi is better than Eichel.  It was, to my understanding anyway, that you don't include Rossi so you can build your center depth and have three quality and possibly elite centers instead of two.  I am sure your above trade proposal of Ek, Rossi and a prospect would have been enough, but then where are we for centers?  

    We overvalued Rossi and have been doing that ever since. I do not think he is an elite C for the top 6. So our center depth (let's focus on top 6) is just Ek (who is really a 2C at best). If Eichel is here - i would think there be more interest from other to join the party and play with him, Kap and Boldy. Eichel and Kap are top 5 players in the league. You can attract players to that. You cannot do the same with Rossi. I would have jumped at that deal and packaged EK, Rossi and a pick. 

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    2 hours ago, FredJohnson said:

    Playing Rossi on the 4th line in the playoffs (for whatever reason) seems to have tainted his value. And now Rossi wants to get paid big bucks or be traded out of Minnesota because he won’t likely be used in the top 6 (that’d drive down his market value).

    Its not because he played on the 4th line. Its HOW he played on the 4th line. 

    Dude was allergic to contact the entire post-season. That's why he got stuck with bigger forecheckers to begin with. 

    Just watch that game 5 OT goal against us and note how Marco Rossi mostly just stands around and plays spectator for a series-flipping OT loss. Rossi left a lot to be desired in his first-ever post-season even if he had some goals. 

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    47 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

    Its not because he played on the 4th line. Its HOW he played on the 4th line. 

    Dude was allergic to contact the entire post-season. That's why he got stuck with bigger forecheckers to begin with. 

    Just watch that game 5 OT goal against us and note how Marco Rossi mostly just stands around and plays spectator for a series-flipping OT loss. Rossi left a lot to be desired in his first-ever post-season even if he had some goals. 

    Garbage opinion.  I challenge you to find a SINGLE stat that supports Rossi being "allergic to contact".

    Did you even read the article?

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    My guess as explanation that Rossi isn't traded yet is that the majority of GMs are not in the mood for rebuild now and almost every team has a lot and growing cap space for the forseeble future and sees the opportunity to improve the roster. The idea or strategy for teams interested in Rossi might be: We better offer-sheet (sign) him for just 7 AAV or e en 6,5 and ship out the 3 picks (1,2,3) instead of giving away (trade) players we want to keep. 

    I'm sure he'll get at least 6,5/ 3 years or 7/longterm next week. Its just not realistic to assume that 31 GMs don't see the opportunity to get a 23 year old 60 point center with upgrade. They all know how to play this poker game - and BGs cards are getting worse every hour. The whole league knows: MIN desperately needs a good Center.

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    1 hour ago, Patrick said:

    Garbage opinion.  I challenge you to find a SINGLE stat that supports Rossi being "allergic to contact".

    Did you even read the article?

    That's an easy one. Hits. He had 7 total hits in 6 playoff games. 

    For referrence, Trenin had 34. Brazeau had 22. Those were his linemates for most of the series.

    On top of that, he blocked only 3 shots. Even the guys who finished with less hits than him had more blocks at least.

    Nyquist had 4 blocks, Kirill had 10, Hartman had 11. 

    Also, if you actually watched him in the playoffs, you should have noted how he often let up on guys when he could've checked them.

    He just did not play very physically. Plain and simple. 

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