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  • Marco Rossi Is Still Looking For the Benefit Of the Doubt


    Image courtesy of Jessica Alcheh-Imagn Images
    Tony Abbott

    In hockey, you often ride the hot hand. Great chemistry between players is rarely the result of struggling and then finding a breakthrough. Usually, you have it or you don't, and once you have it, coaches are loathe to give it up. So it's a bit eyebrow-raising that on Sunday, John Hynes broke up his productive top line for the second consecutive game, swapping center Marco Rossi onto a lower line.

    In isolation, neither change should have stood out. Hynes flipped Rossi with fourth-line center Marat Khusnutdinov for a few shifts at the tail end of the second period in Friday's game at the Anaheim Ducks. Coaches send players, especially young ones, messages all the time. It happens.

    Rossi responded with a goal and assist in the third period; the Wild won, and everyone seemed to move on. Even on Sunday, the Wild needed a goal to tie and loaded up their top line with Kirill Kaprizov, Matt Boldy, and Joel Eriksson Ek. You can't blame a coach for doing that, especially when it netted them the goal that forced overtime.

    But after Sunday's game, The Athletic's Michael Russo wrote about Hynes' dissatisfaction with Rossi's consistency. "[Hynes] knows Rossi's getting points but feels like his game's been up and down. For instance, after taking three penalties in a four-game stretch, Hynes thought Rossi was good in San Jose. But in Anaheim, Hynes felt Rossi needed to be harder on plays and manage the puck better."

    Rossi's 23, and his game is still developing, so learning moments will happen. Ideally, Hynes sends his message, and the extremely driven center works to clean up those mistakes and continues his terrific start to the season. 

    But also... hopefully, Rossi's leash doesn't stay this short because his season has been extremely consistent. The top line of Kaprizov, Rossi, and Mats Zuccarello has outscored opponents by a 12-6 margin at 5-on-5 this season. Looking at Rossi himself, he's only been outscored at 5-on-5 in three of their 15 games and got the better of the expected goals share in 10 of 15 games. Say what you want, but that feels pretty consistent.

    Then there's the offensive output, arguably more consistent than any other forward on the team not named "Kaprizov." Rossi entered Tuesday with 12 even-strength points (tied for 13th in the NHL) and 4.51 individual expected goals (tied for 11th).

    Looking at the game logs, we can see how steadily he's generated chances night after night. Here's the number of his individual xG for each game and how they ranked among Wild forwards on that night:

    Game 1: 0.09 (6th)
    Game 2: 0.48 (2nd)
    Game 3: 0.26 (3rd)
    Game 4: 0.29 (3rd)
    Game 5: 0.73 (1st)

    Game 6: 0.08 (6th)
    Game 7: 0.07 (3rd)
    Game 8: 0.07 (6th)
    Game 9: 0.27 (2nd)
    Game 10: 0.69 (1st)

    Game 11: 0.18 (5th)
    Game 12: 0.02 (4th)
    Game 13: 0.57 (1st)
    Game 14: 0.50 (1st)
    Game 15: 0.22 (3rd)

    In bold is every game where Rossi had at least 0.20 expected goals at even-strength and finished the night in the top three among Wild forwards. That number is nine of 15 games. Compare that to, say, Boldy, who has had just five such games in 15 efforts, and we can get a good sense of how consistent Rossi has been.

    Now, points aren't everything, and neither are scoring chances. But on a team tied for 27th with 2.25 expected goals per hour at 5-on-5, you've got to take the offense you can get, even if those offensive players are prone to an extra mistake or lapse. Rossi's play should earn him the same benefit of the doubt that gets extended to less impactful players (whom I'm sure you can name in the comments). 

    To be fair, there's a balancing act in this -- how much do you prioritize imparting a lesson during a player's growing pains versus not throwing out prospects with the Zamboni water -- and to his credit, Hynes hasn't made any missteps yet. But it can be tricky, and Hynes needs to navigate these waters carefully to enhance the growth in his budding center's game without derailing his (or the top line's) success.

    Think you could write a story like this? Hockey Wilderness wants you to develop your voice, find an audience, and we'll pay you to do it. Just fill out this form.

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    3 hours ago, mnhockeyfan03 said:

    Please stop looking at points and judging a player by that.  Watch the game as see how that player controls the game.  Sorry but Rossi is not a dominate, controlling player.  He is a passenger that needs to be surround by other good players to succeed.  He will be traded to get a better core piece as should Spurgeon.  We need the cap flexibility 

    How is he a player that needs to be surrounded by good players to succeed when he scored 21g 20a on the 3rd line with scrubs as a rookie??? He was 2nd on the team in even strength points because he got no pp time. You just don’t have a clue what you’re talking about and it shows every time you comment. Stats are absolutely relevant. That’s such a dumb take. Stats don’t lie. 

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    5 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    we were booted from playoffs every time because of our lack of size! how is that not evidence? the only size we had was in our 4th line variety that did all the intimidation it could muster from the bench.

    fine here is the last three cup champs - notice the trend?

    Avs: Kadri 6ft, Landeskog 6'1'', McK 6ft, Nich 6'4'', Ranty 6'4, Burak 6'3''

    Vegas: Eichel 6'2'', Hague 6'4'', Karlsson 6ft, Machy 5'9'', McNabb 6'4, Pietrangelo 6'3'', Roy 6'4'', Stone 6'3'', Theodore 6'2''

    Florida: Barkov 6'3'', Bennett 6'1'', Ekblad 6'4'', Forsling 6'1'', Lundell 6'1'', Reinhard 6'1'', Tkachuk 6'2'', Verhaeghe 6'2''

    I’m not at all questioning that this team needs to be bigger. It does without question but you can’t seem to break your concentration from Rossi. It’s ok to have a smaller player or two especially if they are very talented. This team needs to get rid of Marat before it gets rid of Rossi. “Zuccy” doesn’t have much time left and neither does Spurg. Their size and age is a problem.

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    2 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    Remember 3 seasons ago when we put up 100+ pts and then got bullied out of the 1st round.

    Remember 2 seasons ago when we put up 100+ pts and then got bullied out of the 1st round.

    Remember last season...

    What's different this year because it's basically the same group of players (ignoring 4th liners, and they can be ignored for this point)?

    What's the definition of insanity again???

    Out of all the small players you want to divert your attention to, why is it Rossi? It’s astonishing. I agree team needs to get bigger but Rossi isn’t the one you should be looking to get rid of! How do you not see that?

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    2 hours ago, Enforceror said:

    On another note, Michigan U is now 7-1. Stramel has 8gp, 2g, 4a for.75ppg. +5

    6'3 @ 223

    Right shot, listed as C/RW.

    Old news to everyone, I know, but there is a reason he was picked where he was. Hoping he really catches his stride.

    That’s really not that impressive. I heard he was playing first line center. If they’re 7-1 he should have more points. We could have had Calum Ritchie who’s similar size but a lot more talented. We reached because of his size and it probably wasn’t a good idea because all he’s shown is the potential to be a 4th or tops 3rd line C who puts up very few points.

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    40 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    Yeah Boeser has missed a couple games not sure what the problem is. But he has let his agent know he wants to come here. And he is a Minnesota boy so all the pieces are there for Billy to make a run at him. 😆 so true so very true - but maybe it'll be oshie or nelson?

    Do you think a team that felt he wasn't worth protecting might be on that list? vs playing for buffalo? perhaps?

    Buffalo is an incredibly talented team the problem is they’re one of the youngest teams in the nhl. They will be an up and coming team in 2-3 years and he gets to play for his home town.

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    22 minutes ago, Mateo3xm said:

    I’m not at all questioning that this team needs to be bigger. It does without question but you can’t seem to break your concentration from Rossi. It’s ok to have a smaller player or two especially if they are very talented. This team needs to get rid of Marat before it gets rid of Rossi. “Zuccy” doesn’t have much time left and neither does Spurg. Their size and age is a problem.

    haha Marat is fine where he's at and is not due a contract that is north of 7MM

    rossi plays on a line that consists of Kap and 5'8'' Zuccy. rossi is himself like 5'9'' so yeah he is a target. 

    yes both Spurge and Zuccy and funny enough - Kap - are done at the same time....

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    1 minute ago, Mateo3xm said:

    Buffalo is an incredibly talented team the problem is they’re one of the youngest teams in the nhl. They will be an up and coming team in 2-3 years and he gets to play for his home town.

    buffalo has been saying that for 20 years now

    why would they want a 31 year old tuch in 3 years? that would make even more sense for them to ship him out for some prospect or younger asset like rossi

     

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    42 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    buffalo has been saying that for 20 years now

    why would they want a 31 year old tuch in 3 years? that would make even more sense for them to ship him out for some prospect or younger asset like rossi

    I would be shocked if the Wild were on Tuch's no-trade list. Does anyone really think he'd rather play for Anaheim, Columbus, San Jose, Chicago, or Philadelphia?

    Those teams were pretty clearly not going to contend this year and likely not in the next couple of years. The Wild were at least not far from the playoffs last year, have a star and a path to improvement(losing the cap penalties soon), and have a clear spot on the top 6 to replace. A player putting the Wild on their do not trade list doesn't make sense if there are only 5 teams they can choose.

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    1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

    How is he a player that needs to be surrounded by good players to succeed when he scored 21g 20a on the 3rd line with scrubs as a rookie??? He was 2nd on the team in even strength points because he got no pp time. You just don’t have a clue what you’re talking about and it shows every time you comment. Stats are absolutely relevant. That’s such a dumb take. Stats don’t lie. 

    Haha all your posts you did just proved you know nothing about hockey and how to build a playoff team.  You don’t pay Rossi 6-7mm.  You trade him for someone better with a prospect or pick. We have a team of small guys that needs to be addressed

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    1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

    we were booted from playoffs every time because of our lack of size! how is that not evidence? the only size we had was in our 4th line variety that did all the intimidation it could muster from the bench.

    fine here is the last three cup champs - notice the trend?

    Avs: Kadri 6ft, Landeskog 6'1'', McK 6ft, Nich 6'4'', Ranty 6'4, Burak 6'3''

    Vegas: Eichel 6'2'', Hague 6'4'', Karlsson 6ft, Machy 5'9'', McNabb 6'4, Pietrangelo 6'3'', Roy 6'4'', Stone 6'3'', Theodore 6'2''

    Florida: Barkov 6'3'', Bennett 6'1'', Ekblad 6'4'', Forsling 6'1'', Lundell 6'1'', Reinhard 6'1'', Tkachuk 6'2'', Verhaeghe 6'2''

    https://hockeyanalysis.com/2023/11/24/player-size-and-playoff-success/

    Here's a great article that breaks everything down. The size and weigh of defensemen seem to have an impact but more and more forwards are getting lighter on the winning side.

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    6 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    i don't know if you can get any lighter than 5'8'' 5'9'' and 5'10 line....

    Bud just read the article. Here is more evidence that a large forward core or team doesn't necessarily equal success.

    image.png.8f939acfe83756986cf648d886b2b98d.png

    image.png.7a60396c7fe219e69d3bc0e3aa9eee61.png

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    Here is Minnesota's current mean height and weight

    Minnesota Wild     6'0" / 183.78 cm 196 lbs / 88.78 kg  

    Which means we are right around the Penn's when they won the cup, or the Blackhawks.

     

    Point being, while I think it would be advantageous to increase the size of our defense. The size of our forward group is really not a cause for concern, primarily because the weight and height of forwards in playoffs does not have a conclusive effect on the outcome. I can quote some further articles if you like but they all draw the same conclusion from the data available.

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    29 minutes ago, mnhockeyfan03 said:

    Haha all your posts you did just proved you know nothing about hockey and how to build a playoff team.  You don’t pay Rossi 6-7mm.  You trade him for someone better with a prospect or pick. We have a team of small guys that needs to be addressed

    Ah yes, second best center we have ever drafted in terms of how he's played so far. We should probably send him upriver for some picks so we can wait another 20 years to find a decent one. Sounds like a great way to be in the mushy middle for all eternity.

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    1 minute ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    Ah yes, second best center we have ever drafted in terms of how he's played so far. We should probably send him upriver for some picks so we can wait another 20 years to find a decent one. Sounds like a great way to be in the mushy middle for all eternity.

    I didn’t say for a prospect or pick I said you trade him with a pick and/or prospect to get the 1C we need

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    1 minute ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    Bud just read the article. Here is more evidence that a large forward core or team doesn't necessarily equal success.

    image.png.8f939acfe83756986cf648d886b2b98d.png

    image.png.7a60396c7fe219e69d3bc0e3aa9eee61.png

    i mean i provided you the players on last three SC winning teams. there is size there. on top of that there is meanness there that is feared. even our "sizable" players like boldy and ek are anything but deterring. ek probably gets smacked 100 times before he actually reacts and boldy just laughs. their bigs are foligno and bogo and trenin and they all look old. trenin shouldn't but he does. we need the size up front on line 1. we cannot roll out such a tiny line in the playoffs. the game will be called tighter and physicality will intensify. 

    but ok let's look at above - so Blues - let's  look at that core O and D

    D

    Bortuzzo 6'4'' Bowmeester 6'4'' Mikkola 6'4'' Scandella 6'3'' Pietrangelo 6'3'' Parayko 6'6'' that's one meaty D

    O

    Kyrou 6'1'' Tarasenko 6'1'' Thomas 6ft Barbashev 6'1'' Schenn 6'1'' Perron 6ft O'Reilly 6'1'' Brower 6'3'' i guess that's also not a slim group

    can we really compare that to Zuccy 5'8'' Rossi 5'9'' Kap 5'10''? And it's not just the size, it's the nasty way of Playoff hockey which Schenn and Perron bring it. you know the one. that is not Zuccy's game. He can wack his stick at a player after all is done but that is all. 

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    24 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

    i mean i provided you the players on last three SC winning teams. there is size there. on top of that there is meanness there that is feared. even our "sizable" players like boldy and ek are anything but deterring. ek probably gets smacked 100 times before he actually reacts and boldy just laughs. their bigs are foligno and bogo and trenin and they all look old. trenin shouldn't but he does. we need the size up front on line 1. we cannot roll out such a tiny line in the playoffs. the game will be called tighter and physicality will intensify. 

    but ok let's look at above - so Blues - let's  look at that core O and D

    D

    Bortuzzo 6'4'' Bowmeester 6'4'' Mikkola 6'4'' Scandella 6'3'' Pietrangelo 6'3'' Parayko 6'6'' that's one meaty D

    O

    Kyrou 6'1'' Tarasenko 6'1'' Thomas 6ft Barbashev 6'1'' Schenn 6'1'' Perron 6ft O'Reilly 6'1'' Brower 6'3'' i guess that's also not a slim group

    can we really compare that to Zuccy 5'8'' Rossi 5'9'' Kap 5'10''? And it's not just the size, it's the nasty way of Playoff hockey which Schenn and Perron bring it. you know the one. that is not Zuccy's game. He can wack his stick at a player after all is done but that is all. 

    Good, you cherry picked one to suit your point. Now do the 2016 Pens and the 2015 Blackhawks. 

    You can cherry pick stats until the cows come home if you want. It doesn't change that over a larger dataset, the trend doesn't hold true as per all the evidence I've provided to you. I'm not saying your wrong, unbiased data is. I'm just the one pointing it out. 

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    1 hour ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    Good, you cherry picked one to suit your point. Now do the 2016 Pens and the 2015 Blackhawks. 

    You can cherry pick stats until the cows come home if you want. It doesn't change that over a larger dataset, the trend doesn't hold true as per all the evidence I've provided to you. I'm not saying your wrong, unbiased data is. I'm just the one pointing it out. 

    how far are you going to take it? you realize players are getting stronger and stronger right? but ok let's go with Pens in 2016 - 

    Baby crew at 5'11'' Kessel, Guentzel, Crosby, Hagelin, Hornqvist

    Then into the 6ft

    6'0'' letang

    6'1'' Cully, Bonino, Cole

    6'3'' Malkin Maata Hainsley Dumoulin

    So no one below 5'11'' played any role and we have our entire top line 5'10'' and below. And the trend (as i presented) show that the teams are getting bigger. what more do you need?

     

     

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    5 hours ago, Mateo3xm said:

    Out of all the small players you want to divert your attention to, why is it Rossi? It’s astonishing. I agree team needs to get bigger but Rossi isn’t the one you should be looking to get rid of! How do you not see that?

    1) Rossi has market value that's rising but he'll be a non-factor in post season., 2) Guerin wants to get rid of him and he's surrounded by a bunch of old twerps (Zuc, Spurge).  Marat is a cheap twerp who plays with sandpaper. Remember Granlund and PM Bouchard in the playoffs?  Me neither.  Great in regular season though.

    Edited by Pewterschmidt
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    On 11/13/2024 at 8:54 PM, mnhockeyfan03 said:

    Typical MN sports fan.  Why don’t we for once actually build a team that has a chance in the playoffs and not just to get there.  We want to win the cup and sorry Rossi, Nojo, Spurgeon and a few others are not getting us there.  Don’t settle for mediocrity demand excellence.  

    Ohhh taking shots now?

     

    Who should get top line minutes if not rossi?

     

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    14 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

    how far are you going to take it? you realize players are getting stronger and stronger right? but ok let's go with Pens in 2016 - 

    Baby crew at 5'11'' Kessel, Guentzel, Crosby, Hagelin, Hornqvist

    Then into the 6ft

    6'0'' letang

    6'1'' Cully, Bonino, Cole

    6'3'' Malkin Maata Hainsley Dumoulin

    So no one below 5'11'' played any role and we have our entire top line 5'10'' and below. And the trend (as i presented) show that the teams are getting bigger. what more do you need?

     

     

    You forgot a few @ 5' 10" and 5'11";

    Josh Archibald, Trevor Daley, J.S. Dea, Ruhwedel, Olesky, Rust, Simon, Sheary(5'9")

    Streit, Warsofsky and Wilson all played on that team at points throughout the season. 

    In playoffs, Archibald, Rust, Sheary, Streit, Daley, Ruhwedel and Wilson all played games.

    So add seven players in on your below 5'11" list instead of your revisionist bullsh*t and you have a true representation.

    Still trying to cherry pick. Like I said, The unbiased facts don't change bud. Had you read what I posted or even asked for further articles to point on these facts, you could figure out that what your trying to prove is untrue as a whole. Far smarter people than me have done many deep dives into this and it always comes out the same. 

     

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    13 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

    1) Rossi has market value that's rising but he'll be a non-factor in post season., 2) Guerin wants to get rid of him and he's surrounded by a bunch of old twerps (Zuc, Spurge).  Marat is a cheap twerp who plays with sandpaper. Remember Granlund and PM Bouchard in the playoffs?  Me neither.  Great in regular season though.

    We haven't even seen him in playoffs yet Pewter and you still can conclusively say he will be not good in the post season? Seems a little premature.

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    3 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    You forgot a few @ 5' 10" and 5'11";

    Josh Archibald, Trevor Daley, J.S. Dea, Ruhwedel, Olesky, Rust, Simon, Sheary(5'9")

    Streit, Warsofsky and Wilson all played on that team at points throughout the season. 

    In playoffs, Archibald, Rust, Sheary, Streit, Daley, Ruhwedel and Wilson all played games.

    So add seven players in on your below 5'11" list instead of your revisionist bullsh*t and you have a true representation.

    Still trying to cherry pick. Like I said, The unbiased facts don't change bud. Had you read what I posted or even asked for further articles to point on these facts, you could figure out that what your trying to prove is untrue as a whole. Far smarter people than me have done many deep dives into this and it always comes out the same. 

     

    i am not going to list the entire roster, i've focused on the core. but i think i've proven that even 10 years ago  - teams were getting bigger. and look where we are at now - again i've shown how they are even bigger. so not sure where cherry picking come from. it's just a reality. 

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    4 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

    We haven't even seen him in playoffs yet Pewter and you still can conclusively say he will be not good in the post season? Seems a little premature.

    it all comes down to two points. 

    1. reality - line of 5'8'' 5'9'' and 5'10'' players as your CORE will not work in the playoffs. there is no precedence for it. it just does not work.

    2. wild are NOT in the business of taking a slow look at what they have. sure if Rossi is playing for Hawks or Sharks they can take their time and see who they have, see how he does in the playoffs. But we are not them. We have a superstar to worry about. Scratch that a top 3 player in the world. That is the only priority. You go into playoffs with such a tiny line, Wild get whooped, Kap says - "well we tried and guess their ok with status quo, which i am not, so i'll take my talent to XXXX". That's it. We do nothing - there is just no way Kap stays on to "help" us out further. If we do something - then who will help us with that? You got Rossi, Zeev or Yurov. That's it. Another reality. You can complain, bring up stats and comparison all you like. It does NOT matter. To have any chance of enticing Kap to stay, the team must show him that he matters. It won't do that by getting bounced by Dallas or Jets or Avs in the first round and having Kap concussed and broken. Rossi and Zuccy - cannot protect Kap. And it's not about the goons that sit on the bench and bark. It's about help on his line. You mentioned how Marchy won Conn Smythe.....you think it helped having to play with Eichel and Stone? again i ask - which of our hulks is Eichel and which one is Stone? Rossi or Zuccy?

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