Article: Wild Get Reality Check On Disappointing Road Trip

[Scalptrash]

14 minutes ago, FredJohnson said:

The point is, Fred, they are both very beatable teams and the games are at home. If they can't win these games, then they are in trouble. I'm sure you believe they are putting names on cup this year, right?

[raithis]

2 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Let's not all cry in our beers like a bunch of fair weathers.

Exactly.  Some of you guys are ridiculous.  A few games into the season, and half of you guys turn into Deans, whining about everything and so quick to point fingers at anyone.

I'm not defending the team as there is (obviously) a lot of room for improvement, but if you can't be patient to see how things shake out 8 games into a season, you would never be able to handle an actual rebuild.

If the Wild should give up this season, then I suppose that's also your opinion on both the Oilers and the Stars?  As bad as our offense has been, it's been better than theirs, AND we have more points in the standings too.

It's too early in the season to call anything.  The sample size is far too small and there is lots of time to make up ground.  The Wild are only 5 points out of first at this point and people are acting like it's the end of March and the team is freefalling out of the playoff race.

 

 

[raithis]

24 minutes ago, Scalptrash said:

The point is, Fred, they are both very beatable teams and the games are at home. If they can't win these games, then they are in trouble. I'm sure you believe they are putting names on cup this year, right?

Whether the Wild win the Cup or not has no relevance to the fact that that is a complete overreaction.

I don't know who will win the Cup, but pretty much every team that does loses some very winnable games.

Even your response is a complete overreaction.  There's nothing logical about it.

Edited October 23 by raithis

[Imyourhuckleberry]

7 minutes ago, raithis said:

The sample size is far too small and there is lots of time to make up ground.  The Wild are only 5 points out of first at this point and people are acting like it's the end of March and the team is freefalling out of the playoff race.

No question the points percentage to this point is concerning, but if the Wild win their next 2 games, they'll bump right up near the playoff positioned teams.

The Wild were not particularly strong at home last season, but every season takes on a life of its own, so perhaps this season will see the Wild take 9 to 12 points from the upcoming 6-game homestand that begins Saturday. Utah has been playing well, but there are some very winnable matchups in it.

[Burnt Toast]

11 minutes ago, raithis said:

handle an actual rebuild.

I’d be ok with what Montreal has been doing. Go to the SCFs. then instantly go into a super charged,  high draft pick,  insta build. That’s the game I’m looking forward to seeing this year. 

[Dean]

Blank check Craig needs to open the checkbook and buyout Johnny Hynes . Bring in Deboer . I remember during the Dean era , Russo saying Craig didn’t want to spend the money to buyout Dean. Yet Craig goes and pisses money on the highest paid contract that nobody will touch for years to come. That kappy contract is going to bite us in the ass unless they get a coach to light a fire under there asses. Otherwise kappy is going to be the definition of European laziness. Get your money and go soft.. nobody is going to come here and play for peanuts to carry kappys over paid ass. So much for relevancy. 
    The immediate problem is the 2 nd line. Jo Jo and vlad. What the heck do you do with nmc vlad and his cap hit . Jonny ain’t putting him in press box . He’s worthless as a 3 rd or 4 th liner. Can’t win any battle. So he’s stuck in that top six this year .  Just ridiculous. Didn’t the bozo pro scouts think about wtf happens if he’s washed up . What’s the backup plan ?  Jo Jo at least doesn’t make anything. Yet he takes up a roster spot in top 6 and he’s not a 3 rd or 4 th liner type player.  He should be in press box. The kids moved up and the ahlers fill out 4 th line. At least the ahlers have compete in them. 
   I’m also getting sick of hearing how we need to keep waiting for kids to develop. Maybe draft better or develop them better. How old are these kids. Look around the nhl. Kids are playing everywhere and contributing. How old is Ogie now. It’s time to shit or get off the pot with him. Chicago, ducks and mammoth are coming with there kids. Yet we’re still trying to figure out which washed up vet we want to ruin our top 6 with . Jo Jo , vlad , Hartman , moose . 

    I said In the past Chicago will win a playoff round before us with the way they rebuilt versus us. . It’s looking more likely . To think the year we come out of buyouts  this is the team we have. What a flipping joke!!! 

[OldDutchChip]

3 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

Let’s throw out the McD contract.  The Eichel contract is a fair comparison though.  Only the most delusional wild fans would say 97 is more valuable than a 1C on a Cup winner.  Nearly every national ranking has Eichel above 97.  Do the math on that overpay by bill and ask yourself if this is the right guy constructing the roster and managing the assets. Woof 🐶 

sorry buddy, i am usually with ya but Kap (to me) is a better player than Eichel. and still being disrespected by media. 

there is no Stone, Marner, Dorofeev, Barbashev, Karlsson, Hertl on the Wild. I think Kap would push closer to 200 pts this season if he replaces Eichel for Vegas.

it must be deflating for Kap and Boldy to skate with MJ, Vlady, and the rest (apart from Harty, Rossi and Yurov).

Jiricek stinks and Zeev may need to go to AHL to get a bit more comfy with D assignments 5v5 and learn to control himself better on PP. Neither will happen though. 

[Pewterschmidt]

51 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

sorry buddy, i am usually with ya but Kap (to me) is a better player than Eichel. and still being disrespected by media. 

there is no Stone, Marner, Dorofeev, Barbashev, Karlsson, Hertl on the Wild. I think Kap would push closer to 200 pts this season if he replaces Eichel for Vegas.

it must be deflating for Kap and Boldy to skate with MJ, Vlady, and the rest (apart from Harty, Rossi and Yurov).

Jiricek stinks and Zeev may need to go to AHL to get a bit more comfy with D assignments 5v5 and learn to control himself better on PP. Neither will happen though. 

Who’s down with ODC yah you know me

[Scalptrash]

2 hours ago, raithis said:

Whether the Wild win the Cup or not has no relevance to the fact that that is a complete overreaction.

I don't know who will win the Cup, but pretty much every team that does loses some very winnable games.

Even your response is a complete overreaction.  There's nothing logical about it.

None of what I said is an overreaction, I only said that if they lose the next two, they are in trouble.

You're reading into it, as usual, and just trolling. The truth is, they aren't the Oilers or the Stars, so the likelihood of them becoming a top team in the Central is much more daunting task. I live in reality, not sure where you live. Rainbows and unicorns, eh?

[NoJoSux]

Currently 21st in the league.

Not getting too many goals and giving up quite a few on average. Top 5 for goals against. 

Yikes, thought MN has good defense? What's the answer? Coach is giving me the Dean-O vibe before he got fired. Is Hynes capable of getting these guys going? 

Does MN's defense core stink?

[NoJoSux]

NoJo sucks, we've established that. Funny to see his modest wrap-around attempt result in an unfrozen puck for Yurov's first goal, but another weak assist for NoJo's numbers. It must be addressed with the appropriate NoJo-negativity. 

[raithis]

1 hour ago, Scalptrash said:

None of what I said is an overreaction, I only said that if they lose the next two, they are in trouble.

You're reading into it, as usual, and just trolling. The truth is, they aren't the Oilers or the Stars, so the likelihood of them becoming a top team in the Central is much more daunting task. I live in reality, not sure where you live. Rainbows and unicorns, eh?

I'm not trolling at all.  I'm merely stating that it's only 8 games into the season and the gap in points isn't something that can't be overcome yet.  Even if the next two games end up as losses or OTLs, it's not as if the Wild couldn't make up the ground since there would still be 72 games left in the season to do it.  That's reality.

If they lose the next two AND the next ten end up like the first ten, then I'd totally agree with you that they were in trouble.  Right now it's overreacting.  A team doesn't have to win the President's Trophy in order to get into the playoffs so it's not a problem if it makes it harder to be top 4 in the West.  Yeah, I'd prefer they do that well, but I'm not going to feel like the team is a complete failure if they don't.  Again, that's living in reality.

I don't think that the team has shown anything to lead me to believe they have the ability to win the Cup, but I also don't think there is such cause for alarm that the team shouldn't keep progressing as it has.  They need to keep developing the younger players because getting players in free agency is going to be hard because it'll be a bidding war for what few worthwhile players that actually go to free agency.  Likewise, trading is going to be difficult for the better players because teams know that free agency will be limited.  The Wild's best chance is that the player has a NMC and has said that they would waive it for the Wild (and I'm not holding my breath on that one).  The team also doesn't have much for players to give without undercutting the only realistic source of good players - prospects.  Not every one will work out, but for any prospect we trade out, we need to be getting someone still close to their prime that is about at the projected ceiling of the prospect the team gives up.  The player in question also needs to be under contract or willing to sign an extension.

I've gotten a bit off topic, but it's all a bit of explanation that I'm firmly in reality.  I may have a tendency to overthink things, but I'd say most people are also guilty of oversimplifying things.

Also, you didn't only say that.  You also immediately jumped to the conclusion that the other person who indicated it was overreacting thought that the Wild would win the Cup this year.  I don't think many here actually think that.  In fact, I doubt anyone does.  Can they?  Maybe.  Will they?  Unlikely.  That statement was trolling more than anything I said, yet you conveniently left it out.

Edited October 23 by raithis
Apologies for rambling a bit.

[mnfaninnc]

I warned about this before the season started. The kids will need time to acclimate. We will be a far better team (if they let the kids play and learn) by the end of the year than we are now. 

There is no need to panic. There aren't trades that need to be made tomorrow. OgZ should be learning up here. My only complaint with him is he's not physical enough. He is the heavy lifter of a line, doing the dirty work. Those guys get shafted on their importance because they do not show up on the scoresheet that much. Nobody gets an assist with a great dig out of the corner, or a great screen of the goalie. 

Play them all. Get them the experience they need which cannot be learned in the A. Speed up the time it takes for the game to slow down for them. These mistakes need to be coached out of them. I said before the season began that this would be a hard task for the coaching staff, especially the video coaches. 

Transition always takes a little while. We lucked out with Buium dropping to us the last time we missed the playoffs. He's here ahead of schedule. Jiricek, Ohgren and Yurov are all here a year ahead of schedule. 23 years old is the historic rookie year of guys not drafted early. Most of our new guys aren't there yet. Be happy they got here early.

To me, it looks like the transition will be the easiest for Yurov and Buium as skaters, and The Wall looks comfortable in net. 

I disagree that Tarasenko is the boat anchor of the 2nd line. We can certainly see that this belongs to Johansson. Get him off this line and down to the 4th line. Elevate Hartman to the 2nd line (wing) and bring up a young guy to center the 4th line until Sturm is ready. Back injuries are really weird. They can linger for ever, or snap back in randomly one day, and you're good to go in a couple more. 

The biggest thing is this: Your contending window opens when the kids are acclimated. Results will lag. The quicker you get the kids acclimated, the sooner the contending window opens. The way Heinzy is using the kids currently is the equivalent to a window painted shut. 

Note to coach Hynes: You have to embrace the transition, and believe in the kids. You cannot wait for them to be trusted, you will need to trust them with blind faith. You might be bad for awhile, but when they click, it will be better. Currently, you are sending them the message that they are not to be trusted. This mistake may cost you your job.

[Aimlessone]

With the Wild not doing so well, at least these forums are active. That's a positive, right!?

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

On 10/23/2025 at 9:10 AM, Will D. Ness said:

Well isn't this the "learning curve" we were all expecting?  As good as Zeev and Jiri look at times, they have just as many mistakes at critical times.  Yurov looks good, but he isn't going to put up a lot of points for a while.  I'm loving Yurov as C though... I hope we can afford to continue to groom him there.

Bottom line is we are going to lose games if we play these guys.  The gamble is that in a couple months they will reach a level to where we can compete.  All the young guys are improving almost every game.  Let's not all cry in our beers like a bunch of fair weathers.  This is what we signed up for and have been screaming for.  Play the young guys!

The real beef here is our 2nd line.  Complete fail with no silver linings.  Tarasenko and Nojo have maybe a little value on the PP with their singular talents but really have no business playing 5v5 in the NHL.

My issue is we aren't even playing all the kids anymore. We have Ben Jones and Pitlick filling out the fourth line when those spots could be given to a guy like Haight, who I thought put in great effort and looked good. 

I would rather Ohgren get a long leash than us putting these 30 some year old tweeners into the lineup.

Honestly, Jiricek and Buium have been making mistakes but also look better every game. Tarasenko has been awful, losing pucks before he even reaches a defender. Nojo has been a nonfactor. 

Our vets looked very slow in that game, we had no jump at all. The only guys looking up to speed were Hartman, Zeev, Boldy and Vinny.

[mnfaninnc]

Also, welcome back ODC

[Scalptrash]

19 hours ago, raithis said:

I'm not trolling at all.  I'm merely stating that it's only 8 games into the season and the gap in points isn't something that can't be overcome yet.  Even if the next two games end up as losses or OTLs, it's not as if the Wild couldn't make up the ground since there would still be 72 games left in the season to do it.  That's reality.

If they lose the next two AND the next ten end up like the first ten, then I'd totally agree with you that they were in trouble.  Right now it's overreacting.  A team doesn't have to win the President's Trophy in order to get into the playoffs so it's not a problem if it makes it harder to be top 4 in the West.  Yeah, I'd prefer they do that well, but I'm not going to feel like the team is a complete failure if they don't.  Again, that's living in reality.

I don't think that the team has shown anything to lead me to believe they have the ability to win the Cup, but I also don't think there is such cause for alarm that the team shouldn't keep progressing as it has.  They need to keep developing the younger players because getting players in free agency is going to be hard because it'll be a bidding war for what few worthwhile players that actually go to free agency.  Likewise, trading is going to be difficult for the better players because teams know that free agency will be limited.  The Wild's best chance is that the player has a NMC and has said that they would waive it for the Wild (and I'm not holding my breath on that one).  The team also doesn't have much for players to give without undercutting the only realistic source of good players - prospects.  Not every one will work out, but for any prospect we trade out, we need to be getting someone still close to their prime that is about at the projected ceiling of the prospect the team gives up.  The player in question also needs to be under contract or willing to sign an extension.

I've gotten a bit off topic, but it's all a bit of explanation that I'm firmly in reality.  I may have a tendency to overthink things, but I'd say most people are also guilty of oversimplifying things.

Also, you didn't only say that.  You also immediately jumped to the conclusion that the other person who indicated it was overreacting thought that the Wild would win the Cup this year.  I don't think many here actually think that.  In fact, I doubt anyone does.  Can they?  Maybe.  Will they?  Unlikely.  That statement was trolling more than anything I said, yet you conveniently left it out.

Let's add some context on why the Wild may be in trouble. Last year, after eight games, they had 12 points and were 5-1-2=first place. This year they have 7 points and are 3-4-1=tied for last place. After 10 games last year, 16 points. Kirill had 7G and 14A=21 points. He is not on that pace this year.

You can see why the next two games may be fairly important. The season will be 1/8th over already. Reminder, they made the playoffs by 20 seconds last year, even after their incredibly hot start. Before you cry injuries, every team has injuries, including the Panthers.

This season, every player is a year older. Spurgeon and Brodin are showing it and the defense is suffering. Even Faber isn't playing as well. The young D are some of it, but not all of it. The defense was all veterans last year and much more sound. Thank goodness Gustavsson is playing well, or things could be worse.

They are second to last in 5on5 scoring. -7 goal differential. Tarasenko is a severe downgrade from Zuccarello. Johansson must swallow to keep getting top six minutes, it's the only explanation. Everyone in the world knows Ohgren could do no worse, but might actually be better if given an extended opportunity.

If they aren't playing to make the playoffs and trying to win the cup, then why do they play? Leipold and Guerin have made it clear numerous times that this team will never rebuild. This is obvious by who they chose to play in each role, repeatedly. Hynes is still leaning towards vets over youth and they are playing no better. They look old, slow, and tired. It is reason for concern if you're only goal is to make the playoffs. I don't think this is an overreaction at all. It's twice as hard to crawl out of the cellar, other teams don't stand still and wait for you to catch up. This team doesn't have depth or much skill, for that matter, so it's going to be an uphill battle all the way. Every other team in the Central got better and half were already better. Good luck!

[Pewterschmidt]

“I can smell it coming in the air tonight “

F-ART-T line reunited!!!

[NoJoSux]

Gotta beat Utah who has been very good. 

If not, it appears teams like that have turned to their next chapter while MN is not turning the page. 

I don't know if Hynes is the guy? MN is just not on the same page it seems. The chemistry appears to be languishing pretty hard. 

Who will step up? NoJo, Mother-Moose, Middstrom, Kirillionaire?

[Dango]

Im not sure you can compare Kaprizov contract to others because there are other existing conditions on each team , So far Kaps contracts have not forced the Wild to trade anyone or prevent  any re-signings ,   If you look at McDavid contract and say he signed a team friendly deal then why did the Oilers not match those 2 offersheets because they couldnt afford to ,  Why did the AVES not pay up for Ranty or  even Kane ,they didnt have the space ,   Did we lose Fiala because Kaps previous contract ? maybe you could say that but he was paid  on par with his performance so i say no we didnt .  Edmonton probably overpaid a few guys that had more reason for David signing for what he did 

[SkolWild73]

I am not ready to panic yet; 8 games are not enough.  If we are sitting at 20 points after 20 games, even I will begin to get a little worried.  A couple of reasons for optimism.

1.  There are plenty of playoff teams from last year that have not gotten off to great starts.  In the East, Toronto sits at 7 points after 7 games, Tampa at 4 points after 7 games, Florida at 8 points after 9 games and Ottawa with 7 points after 8 games. In the West, you have St. Louis and Dallas with 7 points after 7 games, and the Kings with 8 points out of 8 games.

2.  Last year, there were teams that started great and didn't make the playoffs and teams that did not start so great that did.  After 8 games last year, the Rangers were sitting in first place with 13 points and missed the playoffs.  Edmonton had 7 points after 8 games last year and made the Cup and Colorado was sitting at 4-4.  

3.  The schedule.  The Wild have only played two home games thus far with 5 of their games against playoff teams from last year.  Utah for example has played only 3 teams that made the playoffs last year and has played 4 home games.  Anaheim has played against 1 playoff team from last year.

Of our next 13 games, 11 are at home and only 4 of the 13 are against teams that made the playoffs last year, Winnipeg, Carolina twice and Vegas.  I will hold off judgement until then.  Hopefully we get 18-20 points out of those 13 games and sit at 25 -27 points after 21 games.

[Enforceror]

1 hour ago, SkolWild73 said:

I am not ready to panic yet; 8 games are not enough.  If we are sitting at 20 points after 20 games, even I will begin to get a little worried.  A couple of reasons for optimism.

1.  There are plenty of playoff teams from last year that have not gotten off to great starts.  In the East, Toronto sits at 7 points after 7 games, Tampa at 4 points after 7 games, Florida at 8 points after 9 games and Ottawa with 7 points after 8 games. In the West, you have St. Louis and Dallas with 7 points after 7 games, and the Kings with 8 points out of 8 games.

2.  Last year, there were teams that started great and didn't make the playoffs and teams that did not start so great that did.  After 8 games last year, the Rangers were sitting in first place with 13 points and missed the playoffs.  Edmonton had 7 points after 8 games last year and made the Cup and Colorado was sitting at 4-4.  

3.  The schedule.  The Wild have only played two home games thus far with 5 of their games against playoff teams from last year.  Utah for example has played only 3 teams that made the playoffs last year and has played 4 home games.  Anaheim has played against 1 playoff team from last year.

Of our next 13 games, 11 are at home and only 4 of the 13 are against teams that made the playoffs last year, Winnipeg, Carolina twice and Vegas.  I will hold off judgement until then.  Hopefully we get 18-20 points out of those 13 games and sit at 25 -27 points after 21 games.

Great points and overall, I agree. What is concerning to me is how disconnected the team looks and how inconsistent we are with effort. Hopefully we can brush off the season start cobwebs and get moving. I do think this team has potential. If we can get that second line figured out, whether from a trade or a prospect steps up (Cmon Ogie), that's when the rubber meets the road. 

[Sam]

3 hours ago, SkolWild73 said:

I am not ready to panic yet; 8 games are not enough.  If we are sitting at 20 points after 20 games, even I will begin to get a little worried.  A couple of reasons for optimism.

Boy, you think WAY too level headed. Posters round here are already saying we’re doomed cuz we’re last place in the Central Division. 

[mnfaninnc]

21 hours ago, Scalptrash said:

Let's add some context on why the Wild may be in trouble. Last year, after eight games, they had 12 points and were 5-1-2=first place. This year they have 7 points and are 3-4-1=tied for last place. After 10 games last year, 16 points. Kirill had 7G and 14A=21 points. He is not on that pace this year.

You can see why the next two games may be fairly important. The season will be 1/8th over already. Reminder, they made the playoffs by 20 seconds last year, even after their incredibly hot start. Before you cry injuries, every team has injuries, including the Panthers.

This season, every player is a year older. Spurgeon and Brodin are showing it and the defense is suffering. Even Faber isn't playing as well. The young D are some of it, but not all of it. The defense was all veterans last year and much more sound. Thank goodness Gustavsson is playing well, or things could be worse.

They are second to last in 5on5 scoring. -7 goal differential. Tarasenko is a severe downgrade from Zuccarello. Johansson must swallow to keep getting top six minutes, it's the only explanation. Everyone in the world knows Ohgren could do no worse, but might actually be better if given an extended opportunity.

If they aren't playing to make the playoffs and trying to win the cup, then why do they play? Leipold and Guerin have made it clear numerous times that this team will never rebuild. This is obvious by who they chose to play in each role, repeatedly. Hynes is still leaning towards vets over youth and they are playing no better. They look old, slow, and tired. It is reason for concern if you're only goal is to make the playoffs. I don't think this is an overreaction at all. It's twice as hard to crawl out of the cellar, other teams don't stand still and wait for you to catch up. This team doesn't have depth or much skill, for that matter, so it's going to be an uphill battle all the way. Every other team in the Central got better and half were already better. Good luck!

This take is not a wrong way to look at it, especially if the expectation was the window for contending opened this season, and we were finally going to get past the 1st round and win our division. 

I don't think this is reality, though. First of all, comparing this team to last year's start is not apples to apples. This year's team has 5-6 rookies playing with 1 new vet. That's approximately 1/3rd of the roster. Training camp is 2 weeks. The players are not going to gel in that amount of time, and quite honestly, I am surprised they didn't split camp and have the prospects in a week earlier for a training camp (not an exhibition). This team was always going to start slow just by the makeup.

You brought up the Panthers. In '21-22, they set a team record for points and won the President's trophy. They were quickly shown the door in the playoffs once again by the Lightening in round 2. One would think that was a pretty good team. That summer, they traded for Matthew Tkachuk and went from 122 pts. to 98, barely making the playoffs. But, they still had a really good team, and that team went to the SCF. The next 2 seasons they won the cup. What do you think people were saying when they barely made the playoffs in '22-23? I can tell you, they changed the way they played, got Maurice as coach and finally gelled at the end of the season. It's going to take time for 1/3rd of the roster to get up to speed. 

Every player is a year older, including the 5-6 rookies. We should get internally better from Boldy, Rossi, and Faber (who hasn't shown it yet but looks stronger to me). This is how contending teams start to build, but we don't even have framing yet from the upper levels, we're still building the foundation with the young players. If Hynes is going to shield them, instead of fully integrating them, well, that's the same mistake we had with the kids from 2010. Guerin should be insisting on Hynes playing the kids, and you learn more through mistakes and failures than you do through winning. This was always going to be an exhaustive year for the coaching staff. 

Tarasenko was never supposed to be compared with Zuccarello as a replacement. He was supposed to be his wingman. Zuccarello is supposed to be on line 2 kicking Johansson into the Prossbox, but due to injury, we had to put in a claim on our insurance policy. 

Of course they are playing to get to the playoffs and trying to win a cup. Reality is that this will likely not happen this year, but squeaking into the playoffs should. Now here comes the hard part. If Hynes keeps running with the vets and shielding the kids, he will likely burn out the vets and risk injury, especially with the condensed schedule. If he plays the kids and just swallows their mistakes and coaches it out of them, they will grow but this could be a roller coaster season. Yet, with the young legs, they are better to bounce back in a shorter time and the injury risk is less. 

To me, Hynes does not appear to be a risk tolerant coach. He's going to have to be for this team to be successful. He has to swallow his comfort zone, and change the way he coaches or we will burn out the vets, the kids won't advance, and this team won't make the playoffs or have anything left in the tank to take round 1. He is the 1 guy that must change for this to end well.

[mnfaninnc]

16 hours ago, Enforceror said:

Great points and overall, I agree. What is concerning to me is how disconnected the team looks and how inconsistent we are with effort. Hopefully we can brush off the season start cobwebs and get moving. I do think this team has potential. If we can get that second line figured out, whether from a trade or a prospect steps up (Cmon Ogie), that's when the rubber meets the road. 

Is it that the effort isn't there, or is it that they're not sure what their linemates or defense partners are going to do? Both would look similar.