Article: The David Jiricek Trade Is Still the Right Call

[OldDutchChip]

5 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

I would show my best players the blueprint and get their reaction. I'm not saying he asked for his approval, I'm saying that Kaprizov saw the plan and agreed to play here with that in mind. This gave him a big picture look at the plan and prepped him to become an A.

Another blunder - should have given him a C last year

[RedLake]

If Billy G has a plan it involves a Kaprizov trade, selling our youth for a 3 window to get past the first round.

[OldDutchChip]

3 hours ago, Mateo3xm said:

You simply can’t get it that Rant was never going to come here no matter how much they offered him. He wanted to go to a contender and he basically had a choice where he went because he wouldn’t sign an extension if he didn’t like where he was going. You’re like a brick wall sometimes.

Why are you stuck on one player? It’s an overall approach that is the core issue. Next time, it would be Tkachuk or Nylander or Elias - and we’ll be out of it too (likely because of biting early on someone like Nelson

get it?

[RedLake]

Ehlers sign him. Billy has Pittsburgh connections. Get Crosby, trade for Brady. Trade the next 5 years for Conner, and make the bottom 6 into complete hell to play against. Due something Billy cause you haven't took one liberal chance. 

     Boldy, Kaprizov, Yurov, Ek. Brodin, Middleton, Buuim, Faber, Hartman, and Strohs. Add 2 top 6ers and a real 3rd line.

[OldDutchChip]

8 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Keep in mind that FL had a really good team before making the M. Tkachuk trade. The next season was almost a bust but the following season was magical.

 

Nobody is claiming that upon arrival everyone will be playing great. Of course there is an acclimation period. Results will lag, but we should be able to get into the playoffs at about 106 points and do damage. The whole year will be about playing together and getting used to each other. When FL did it, they made their noise by beating President's trophy Boston in 7 games in round 1, and then got on a roll. That can be us. 

Would you be surprised if on opening night 2025 all of these guys are there? I would be really surprised as I think some are traded off this summer. 

 

To this point, would you say yes or no: Has Kaprizov improved his game since his rookie year? They knew what they had and what the potential was, but they did not know where Kaprizov's plateaus were. Said another way, they knew they had something special, but they just didn't know his limits. 

This is the same thing with the kids coming. We can see the potential but have no idea how long it will take to get us there. You cannot say in one breath the scouts should have known and in the next breath say the kids are an unknown. The scouts should know with all the players.

Point still stands - FL send out an elite (at the time) offensive player and changed their style. They understood that elite skill + physicality up top = winning. 

Yes, Wild can be a Cinderella story, but only that. They require luck and a round win would shock everyone. Is that what you want? Isn’t the goal to actually be contenders and win the cup?

we were gifted a top player basically for nothing (5th round) and as he approaches the most important period of his career with the club, we are in the same dump of a position as we were as when he got here. 

still can’t win a round……

as for Kap - they should have known, and it was clear that he was better than any of previous wild players ever by end of his rookie year. Second year - that’s a guarantee. Now he is still an afterthought. 

crazy

[mnfaninnc]

8 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

When a superstar is available you have to go for it and adjust to fit that player, that’s what Florida did. It would also likely better suit Rossi and Boldy game too. Yes, some like Foligno and Freddy and Ek would find themselves on the outs, but that I think we can live with.

That's not what FL did, what FL did was double down on how they wanted to play by picking up M. Tkachuk. For the better part of that year, the team did not respond well as they became more of a grinding team that didn't score its way out of trouble. But, the parts they had in place were for a grinding team. It took them about a year to adjust, but they got hot just to qualify for the playoffs, and stayed hot. Bobrovsky was a major reason they got hot. They also became really hard to play against. I believe their intensity level also rose.

[mnfaninnc]

8 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Another blunder - should have given him a C last year

I like him with the A for his teammates. I think being the C to listen and speak in English is still not something he's comfortable with. I'm more inclined to go with Ek having the C, but at this time, his durability is in question. 

However, I still maintain that all letters should be turned in after each season.

[mnfaninnc]

8 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Why are you stuck on one player? It’s an overall approach that is the core issue. Next time, it would be Tkachuk or Nylander or Elias - and we’ll be out of it too (likely because of biting early on someone like Nelson

get it?

I am not stuck on one player but am very choosy of who I would bring in for what cost. Either Tkachuk I'd love to have, I'd probably choose Elias over Nylander. What superstars are available that play that Kopitar/Bergeron type of style? Those are the guys that this team is built to thrive with. 

[mnfaninnc]

4 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

as for Kap - they should have known, and it was clear that he was better than any of previous wild players ever by end of his rookie year. Second year - that’s a guarantee. Now he is still an afterthought. 

I don't think anyone believes that Kaprizov is an afterthought to the Front Office. Let's just take the after '21-22 season. The Wild go into the offseason already committed to 5 years of cap penalties, 2 1st round picks and their future goalie and defense in tow. What then?

They go forward with 2 wings in Ohgren and Yurov. They stay with revamping the forwards after that. They have to penny pinch for NHL players due to the financial conundrum they are in and still promise a competitive team. The results have been about the same, but the transformation of the organization is far different.

4 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Yes, Wild can be a Cinderella story, but only that. They require luck and a round win would shock everyone. Is that what you want? Isn’t the goal to actually be contenders and win the cup?

What I am looking for is a nice open window where this team is a contender, not just competitive. That window would be open for 7-10 years. I don't just want a 1 and done run at a cup, but I want 7-10 shots at it. I think we get that staying the course and giving the kids time. Ovi endured, Kap's hero, and was finally rewarded late in his career as he led Washington on a nice run.

4 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Point still stands - FL send out an elite (at the time) offensive player and changed their style. They understood that elite skill + physicality up top = winning. 

I don't think FL changed their style, I think they doubled down on their physical play realizing that most of their conference did not. Really, only Boston was a threat to that and they were old. Much of FL lines were already physical and they just completed what they needed. I really wish we could have been in the M. Tkachuk sweepstakes that year, but, we were not in a position to be. 

We do need physicality, I'm already on board with that, and just not that but also skill from that player. Our game thrives with a physical top 6 that plays a 200' game. Those guys will be lower in point totals but not lower in game impact. They will also, likely, be more affordable.

[SkolWild73]

9 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

When a superstar is available you have to go for it and adjust to fit that player, that’s what Florida did. It would also likely better suit Rossi and Boldy game too. Yes, some like Foligno and Freddy and Ek would find themselves on the outs, but that I think we can live with.

What superstar has been available for a trade that we could have realistically fit into our cap space in the last 4 years though?  I will give you that yes, we could have made a move for Eichel, but there were tons of question marks for him with his injury.  As far as making a play for Tkachuk in 2022, Calgary was coming off a season where they won their division with 111 points and made the second round of the playoffs.  They wanted players to win now, and not prospects.  The only player that we had that would have fit that was Kaprisov.

Then there is Rantanen, who didn't want to come here anyway.  Just not sure what game changer there has been available that we could have gotten.

 

[OldDutchChip]

45 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

That's not what FL did, what FL did was double down on how they wanted to play by picking up M. Tkachuk. For the better part of that year, the team did not respond well as they became more of a grinding team that didn't score its way out of trouble. But, the parts they had in place were for a grinding team. It took them about a year to adjust, but they got hot just to qualify for the playoffs, and stayed hot. Bobrovsky was a major reason they got hot. They also became really hard to play against. I believe their intensity level also rose.

I thought Tkachuk’s player trajectory in terms of skill/value was already exceeding that of Hubby, so it favored Florida almost immediately but I could be misremembering 

The lesson here is - Skill and toughness wins in this league 

Who w Wild offers skill + toughness? Only Kap. The others offer only some skill and no toughness (Bolds, Rossi, Zuccy) There is NO toughness in the top 6 ….i guess Foligno but he should not be playing top 6 minutes and we’ve seen his impact before…..

I’m kinda getting off track but I think you and I agree that we need to beef up our top 6 and even agree on target and sacrificial lamb to entice Ottawa (Faber/Ohgren should do it?)

So hope that happens.

So what’s the difference for you and I?

I think by now we’ve had to (a) succeed / making it past R1 and (b) give Kap his mates (we haven’t). Result - Kap walks. And no matter how the cards were dealt - I feel that a smarter GM, with a better plan and execution would have yielded better result and produce a better state of things for the wild in Kap’s 5th year. The way I see it - Kap already picked his EC team and only a miracle run this year may convince him to change his mind.

you think that Kap is a patient guy and our prospects are solid enough to give us “hope”, we just need to wait a bit more. And Kap sees it and will wait again.

[OldDutchChip]

59 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I am not stuck on one player but am very choosy of who I would bring in for what cost. Either Tkachuk I'd love to have, I'd probably choose Elias over Nylander. What superstars are available that play that Kopitar/Bergeron type of style? Those are the guys that this team is built to thrive with. 

Sorry this was to another poster

Im with you on that 

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

I like him with the A for his teammates. I think being the C to listen and speak in English is still not something he's comfortable with. I'm more inclined to go with Ek having the C, but at this time, his durability is in question. 

However, I still maintain that all letters should be turned in after each season.

The smart thing to do would have been to trade spurge and give C to Kap right after. Give him a chance to soak in that responsibility….and make it a bit tougher for him to let go and leave 🤔

Edited Friday at 02:49 PM by OldDutchChip

[OldDutchChip]

49 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I don't think anyone believes that Kaprizov is an afterthought to the Front Office. Let's just take the after '21-22 season. The Wild go into the offseason already committed to 5 years of cap penalties, 2 1st round picks and their future goalie and defense in tow. What then?

They go forward with 2 wings in Ohgren and Yurov. They stay with revamping the forwards after that. They have to penny pinch for NHL players due to the financial conundrum they are in and still promise a competitive team. The results have been about the same, but the transformation of the organization is far different.

What I am looking for is a nice open window where this team is a contender, not just competitive. That window would be open for 7-10 years. I don't just want a 1 and done run at a cup, but I want 7-10 shots at it. I think we get that staying the course and giving the kids time. Ovi endured, Kap's hero, and was finally rewarded late in his career as he led Washington on a nice run.

I don't think FL changed their style, I think they doubled down on their physical play realizing that most of their conference did not. Really, only Boston was a threat to that and they were old. Much of FL lines were already physical and they just completed what they needed. I really wish we could have been in the M. Tkachuk sweepstakes that year, but, we were not in a position to be. 

We do need physicality, I'm already on board with that, and just not that but also skill from that player. Our game thrives with a physical top 6 that plays a 200' game. Those guys will be lower in point totals but not lower in game impact. They will also, likely, be more affordable.

What then?

You don’t sign Foligno, Harty, Freddy, MJ, Trenin, Zuccy and you don’t waste your picks and instead you lead with youth (play them over another bunch of has-beens) and wait to make a smart, (maybe) bold /aggressive move when a chance comes calling

Maybe you come out with Matthew Tkachuk? Or maybe you get Brady Tkachuk when OTT struggles during the span from 2022 till this winter time

there are scenarios that could have materialized but given our appeal for low risk and low value players (Nyquist) we were never in those conversations 

It’s a taboo here to even suggest a pretend trade of Rossi and Faber! And it requires to bring something of value to any barter. And if we can’t join the elite trade world - all that’s left is Nyquist. 

[OldDutchChip]

56 minutes ago, SkolWild73 said:

What superstar has been available for a trade that we could have realistically fit into our cap space in the last 4 years though?  I will give you that yes, we could have made a move for Eichel, but there were tons of question marks for him with his injury.  As far as making a play for Tkachuk in 2022, Calgary was coming off a season where they won their division with 111 points and made the second round of the playoffs.  They wanted players to win now, and not prospects.  The only player that we had that would have fit that was Kaprisov.

Then there is Rantanen, who didn't want to come here anyway.  Just not sure what game changer there has been available that we could have gotten.

 

That’s why you have smart planning and agility (we didn’t and still don’t)

yes there were elite players traded and even more on the market…known trades that materialized you already listed but there are always talks, it’s just we never join that high stake table. Ours have been a low stake game

[SkolWild73]

6 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

That’s why you have smart planning and agility (we didn’t and still don’t)

yes there were elite players traded and even more on the market…known trades that materialized you already listed but there are always talks, it’s just we never join that high stake table. Ours have been a low stake game

Again I ask, what game changing players have  been available for trade or have been traded that we could have realistically gotten?

[OldDutchChip]

3 minutes ago, SkolWild73 said:

Again I ask, what game changing players have  been available for trade or have been traded that we could have realistically gotten?

We could have at least tried on these (who were available at one time or another)

Eichel, Tkachuk, Rantannen, Miller, Guentzel

Necas, Buch, go after Pasta since Boston is tanking, nylander is on trade block every year

But again - we do not play high stakes 

we are a team that celebrates signing of Havlat and Marcus Johansson, welcoming home - old Vanek, Cullen, and soon Nelson

To even dare think of an elite player? No way!

And what if we are lucky to draft one? Well we F up everything and proceed as that player is not really THAT good

Another 5 year plan in motion - build around Faber and Rossi (and hope for stability aka wild card appearance for next 10 years)

[MacGyver]

I do agree with ODC that we never seem to be in the conversation on the difference makers. There are a number of reasons why and I do acknowledge the buy out penalties, it's just a fact. Also I don't think Billy is a very creative thinker. He gets locked in on a certain type of player and he can't think outside of that.  Add to that a few or more of them simply don't want to come here. The Wild have never been ones to trade long time vets on this team especially those wearing a letter they just don't do it. Spurgeon is here as long as he wants to be. Most likely the same with Faber. I was a big proponent of going after Chycrun a few years ago when he was with the Yotes and he could have been had while he was still on a $3+M contract. Instead we have Merril, Bogo, Chisholm and company. Chycrun already had NHL games under his belt and was still young. Plug and play. No waiting and hoping on a college kid or other prospect.  

Big defenseman with an offensive upside but we never even looked his way. They were kind of in but not on Eichel and I get that given the injury risk. Had the Wild given up what was needed for him and he didn't pan out here that could have set us back ten years and Kaprizov would certainly be gone. 

I don't mean to criticize you trade dreamers but some of it is so unrealistic knowing the Wild are not going to trade Spurgeon or Faber or even Zuccy Kaprizov's emotional support pet.  They only seem willing to peddle Rossi. This is not going to put you in the conversation. 

[M_Nels]

41 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

You don’t sign Foligno, Harty, Freddy, MJ, Trenin, Zuccy and you don’t waste your picks and instead you lead with youth (play them over another bunch of has-beens) and wait to make a smart, (maybe) bold /aggressive move when a chance comes calling

Trenin is looking like the worst on your list but he's played some of his best hockey the last few weeks.

You need guys like Harty and Freddy on your squad no matter how much youth you want to bring in. If Freddy keeps playing like he has been the rest of his contract that's a hell of a bargain.

We've seen that your young fringe guys still aren't even the caliber of Mojo, who is gone after this year and is actually playing well right now.

[SkolWild73]

1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

We could have at least tried on these (who were available at one time or another)

Eichel, Tkachuk, Rantannen, Miller, Guentzel

Necas, Buch, go after Pasta since Boston is tanking, nylander is on trade block every year

But again - we do not play high stakes 

we are a team that celebrates signing of Havlat and Marcus Johansson, welcoming home - old Vanek, Cullen, and soon Nelson

To even dare think of an elite player? No way!

And what if we are lucky to draft one? Well we F up everything and proceed as that player is not really THAT good

Another 5 year plan in motion - build around Faber and Rossi (and hope for stability aka wild card appearance for next 10 years)

Were any of Eichel, Tkachuk, Rantanen, Miller or Guentzel realistic though?  I already said we probably could have for Eichel, but there were tons of risk with his injury.  Tkachuk was traded for win now players and the only one we had in 2022 was Kap. so that isn't realistic and have already discussed that Rantanen was not coming here.  To get Miller or Gentzel, we would have needed to trade salary, and the only player of real trade value we had to trade is Boldy.  Not sure that either of those players put us over the top. They would be great if we could keep Boldy, but not sure we improve all that much if he would have to be included.

Let's see how the next couple of years play out when we have more realistic options to make deals, meaning we are more flexible with salary space.  I just do not think we had many realistic trade options to drastically improve this team the last few years with our salary cap space.  

Until then, I just hope that our trade deadline acquisitions from this year, Kap, Ek and maybe Zeev and Yurov are enough to get us back to playing how we were to start the season.  If we do that, we can beat anybody in a 7 game series.

 

[raithis]

2 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

The smart thing to do would have been to trade spurge and give C to Kap right after. Give him a chance to soak in that responsibility….and make it a bit tougher for him to let go and leave 🤔

I'd have no problem moving on from Spurgeon if it made the team better.  But until Jiricek or Buium are in the NHL proving that we can sacrifice Spurgeon for someone else, it doesn't make sense.

I also don't think that giving the C to Kaprizov makes sense.  Sure he leads a bit by example, but he's not one to pull the team together and engage with players much.  He discusses plays with Zuccarello, but that's about it.  Almost all of the time he sits on the far end of the bench.

An A makes sense.  The Wild want him to be a leader, but he isn't always willing.  He does all his leading on the ice.  Wearing the C doesn't stop when you sit down.  I've no idea what he does outside of the rink, in practice, or in the locker room, but I imagine he's quiet and a little introverted.  If he showed me he was working with the team more on the bench, I could get more on board with giving him the C, but he's never been that type of person.

I think Spurgeon does all right as the captain, but I'd rather it go to someone a little meaner.  Good-guy Spurgeon may be good for team morale, but I think the torch should be passed.  Whoever that is should be willing to lead, do what's best for the team, go out of their way to be a mentor, and be willing to put people in line a bit if they are doing stuff detrimental to the team.  Sure, the coaches do that too, but sometimes it hits harder when it's coming from your teammate.

Maybe Kaprizov will eventually become that, but I don't think it's in his personality.  He just wants to compete and play.  I think he wants to be heard, which is why an A makes sense, but he's not a C type person.

 

[OldDutchChip]

2 hours ago, M_Nels said:

Trenin is looking like the worst on your list but he's played some of his best hockey the last few weeks.

You need guys like Harty and Freddy on your squad no matter how much youth you want to bring in. If Freddy keeps playing like he has been the rest of his contract that's a hell of a bargain.

We've seen that your young fringe guys still aren't even the caliber of Mojo, who is gone after this year and is actually playing well right now.

True you need all sorts to make a good team, but we picked from one pile and overloaded up on them. Often times it was a struggle to find room for youngsters (that wasn’t on L4) and some chose a path out (McBain) or delayed their arrival (Yurov). It’s also a cumulative effect that build up this mess over time - where it’s not just one signing or move, rather it’s a strategy blunder after years of lack of planning and smart execution by wild 

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, SkolWild73 said:

Were any of Eichel, Tkachuk, Rantanen, Miller or Guentzel realistic though?  I already said we probably could have for Eichel, but there were tons of risk with his injury.  Tkachuk was traded for win now players and the only one we had in 2022 was Kap. so that isn't realistic and have already discussed that Rantanen was not coming here.  To get Miller or Gentzel, we would have needed to trade salary, and the only player of real trade value we had to trade is Boldy.  Not sure that either of those players put us over the top. They would be great if we could keep Boldy, but not sure we improve all that much if he would have to be included.

Let's see how the next couple of years play out when we have more realistic options to make deals, meaning we are more flexible with salary space.  I just do not think we had many realistic trade options to drastically improve this team the last few years with our salary cap space.  

Until then, I just hope that our trade deadline acquisitions from this year, Kap, Ek and maybe Zeev and Yurov are enough to get us back to playing how we were to start the season.  If we do that, we can beat anybody in a 7 game series.

 

Realistic? Who knows? I’d say - probably, IF we were serious and willing to pay. But we never were, we are bargain traders and shoppers and keep telling fans - it’s not us, it’s them! The players don’t want to play here! But we don’t even try. 

and like I said - its not an isolated case, its a common theme/approach - so saying we couldn’t get into Guentzel sweepstakes is not saying why we can’t - and that’s because we’ve taken on Harty, Zuccy and Freddy. Were we more careful with our contracts and NTC - maybe we would have had a chance at Guentzel…and that’s our story over and over!

[Citizen Strife]

Being hung up on winning now would be great, if we knew the Wild were a team that could do that.  A team with a 25th-27th ranked offense, shitty faceoffs, and a 30th ranked PK isn't a team I invest in to change everything.  Guerin isn't stupid.  He sees, "Eh...this team kinda sucks right now," and was probably forced to make some move so Leipold would not have a hair up his ass.  After all, tanking out of the playoff race only helps Columbus's 1st round pick anyway.

Maybe if they had stayed 2nd-3rd in the divsion, sure.  But there was no sign that was going to feasible once Colorado and now St. Louis figured out whatever shit went wrong early (goaltending).

I get "when is the 1st round win even gonna happen.  It's going to happen when the team isn't so fucking injured and they aren't playing 20-30 point players as forwards and their bottom defensemen average 10 points.  Quibble all you want, but the Boldys and Rossis of the world should be the baseline players going forward if you want offensive depth.  50s-60s makes for a much larger chance one of those guys is a sleeper in the playoffs.  

I don't really know what style of team "wins" rounds.  But I know what lost them: trying to play uptempo and try to outgun and outrun teams and play sloppy.  Give me the team that played NJ in NJ, not the team that played Dallas, Vegas, or the Rangers.  

[OldDutchChip]

54 minutes ago, raithis said:

I'd have no problem moving on from Spurgeon if it made the team better.  But until Jiricek or Buium are in the NHL proving that we can sacrifice Spurgeon for someone else, it doesn't make sense.

I also don't think that giving the C to Kaprizov makes sense.  Sure he leads a bit by example, but he's not one to pull the team together and engage with players much.  He discusses plays with Zuccarello, but that's about it.  Almost all of the time he sits on the far end of the bench.

An A makes sense.  The Wild want him to be a leader, but he isn't always willing.  He does all his leading on the ice.  Wearing the C doesn't stop when you sit down.  I've no idea what he does outside of the rink, in practice, or in the locker room, but I imagine he's quiet and a little introverted.  If he showed me he was working with the team more on the bench, I could get more on board with giving him the C, but he's never been that type of person.

I think Spurgeon does all right as the captain, but I'd rather it go to someone a little meaner.  Good-guy Spurgeon may be good for team morale, but I think the torch should be passed.  Whoever that is should be willing to lead, do what's best for the team, go out of their way to be a mentor, and be willing to put people in line a bit if they are doing stuff detrimental to the team.  Sure, the coaches do that too, but sometimes it hits harder when it's coming from your teammate.

Maybe Kaprizov will eventually become that, but I don't think it's in his personality.  He just wants to compete and play.  I think he wants to be heard, which is why an A makes sense, but he's not a C type person.

 

Giving Kap his C makes him a leader and gives him direct ownership and responsibility for the guys in the locker room, which may mean something to him when it’s time to decide on his contract

On spurge, you need to know when it’s time to move on. He came back from injury and lost some speed and will continue to loose it as he ages. He cannot be counted as a playoff shutdown D and is owed 7.5 for next 2 yrs. 

I see another “cap penalty” type of anchor coming, regardless if he is or not playing on the team. Starting this PO - we have to cover for him, and you don’t have success if players are incapable of carrying their weight. 

his time w Wild is done