Article: Guerin Built Minnesota's Roster With Three Timelines In Mind

[M_Nels]

2 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Boldy/Faber: Locked in for 5-10 years as complementary pieces.  Boldy is a PPG, and Faber is a 50 pt guy in year 2. have you seen Boldy and Fat Ass Faber play this year? Are they worth 7 and 8.5 mm? really? Boldy is a figure skater half the time and Faber has taken a bit of a step back (i hope we don't have another Suter here, sorry "one-of-us" how dare I)

You think Faber is out of shape or are you just salty all the time for no reason? 

He hasn't lost any speed from last year from what I've seen. There are times he's made some questionable decisions but overall still a good defender and a franchise player. Tell me how many guys immediately make the jump from the NCAA and are a top 4 d-man from the get. Arguably should've won the Calder but Bedard was destined for it.

Kid is still just 22yrs old and after 122ish games you're wanting to write him off and wanting to throw him on the trade block for your golden boys?? Where are you getting a cheaper, better, younger RHD? Get real.

The absolute untouchables on this team right now for me are: Kap, Ek, Brodin, Faber 

The 2nd tier of untouchables unless we're talking like Draisatl are: Zeev, Yurov, Boldy, Mids, Wally, Gus, Rossi, Jiricek (risky I know)

1 player be it Tuch are Tkachuk aren't going to make up for what you're wanting to give away.

Give me a realistic scenario where the team is able to acquire your coveted forwards that don't immediately leave gaping holes in the team this season or next. We can talk about who we want until we're blue in the face but you've gotta be realistic. 

[OldDutchChip]

6 minutes ago, M_Nels said:

You think Faber is out of shape or are you just salty all the time for no reason? 

He hasn't lost any speed from last year from what I've seen. There are times he's made some questionable decisions but overall still a good defender and a franchise player. Tell me how many guys immediately make the jump from the NCAA and are a top 4 d-man from the get. Arguably should've won the Calder but Bedard was destined for it.

Kid is still just 22yrs old and after 122ish games you're wanting to write him off and wanting to throw him on the trade block for your golden boys?? Where are you getting a cheaper, better, younger RHD? Get real.

The absolute untouchables on this team right now for me are: Kap, Ek, Brodin, Faber 

The 2nd tier of untouchables unless we're talking like Draisatl are: Zeev, Yurov, Boldy, Mids, Wally, Gus, Rossi, Jiricek (risky I know)

1 player be it Tuch are Tkachuk aren't going to make up for what you're wanting to give away.

Give me a realistic scenario where the team is able to acquire your coveted forwards that don't immediately leave gaping holes in the team this season or next. We can talk about who we want until we're blue in the face but you've gotta be realistic. 

yeah faber is playing tired and is dragging his fat ass around the ice rink getting hammered by opponents. i am not writing him off, but saying - no one was pressuring Billy to give him 8.5 mil, just like his other deals. if we deal faber in the right package - that will be fine with me. 

The 2nd tier of untouchables unless we're talking like Draisatl are: Zeev, Yurov, Boldy, Mids, Wally, Gus, Rossi, Jiricek (risky I know) Draisailt is 2nd tier or are you comparing Rossi and this crew you listed to him? from this list i guess i'd pick only Midds as untouchable. 

ive already shown scenarios in previous posts. go read them.

[mnhockeyfan03]

Faber has been playing terribly this year.  Brodin, middleton, spurgeon, chisolm all outplaying.  He should 100% be available for the right deal.  We need a big shakeup.  We had an easy schedule to begin the season and Gus was hiding all our defects with his good play.  Now we are playing better teams we are getting exposed.  Everyone on the team besides Kap, Ek, Brodin should be available in trades.  We need 3 new forwards through trade and a couple bigger Dmen.  
 

if we loose to Chicago tonight stuff really is going to hit the fan 

[M_Nels]

13 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

he 2nd tier of untouchables unless we're talking like Draisatl are: Zeev, Yurov, Boldy, Mids, Wally, Gus, Rossi, Jiricek (risky I know) Draisailt is 2nd tier or are you comparing Rossi and this crew you listed to him? from this list i guess i'd pick only Midds as untouchable. 

No, Draisatl is absolutely top tier but I'm saying the 2nd tier of untouchables are essentially off limits unless a player like Draisatl would be coming back.

[M_Nels]

17 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

if we deal faber in the right package - that will be fine with me. 

You didn't answer the most important question about Faber.

Where are you getting a cheaper, better, younger franchise RHD? Guess you could throw bigger into that list as well. You've said almost ad nauseam how bad the d-prospects in Iowa are so why would you want to cause an immediate gaping hole in your top 4 with no viable solutions to replace him.

[OldDutchChip]

5 minutes ago, M_Nels said:

No, Draisatl is absolutely top tier but I'm saying the 2nd tier of untouchables are essentially off limits unless a player like Draisatl would be coming back.

oh 

but what if Tkachuk is available? would you not trade ANY of them for him?

[OldDutchChip]

2 minutes ago, M_Nels said:

You didn't answer the most important question about Faber.

Where are you getting a cheaper, better, younger franchise RHD? Guess you could throw bigger into that list as well. You've said almost ad nauseam how bad the d-prospects in Iowa are so why would you want to cause an immediate gaping hole in your top 4 with no viable solutions to replace him.

i mean how many D do we need? i think timing is important here. i want to maximize the now and go for it to let Kap experience winning! and our D is set and G is playing at Vezina level while future G is a bit raw..... back to Ds - we are hearing that Zeev is Faber and then some. If Zeev is as advertised, he can come in and move into Faber slot and play with Midds. He will own the PP (much better than Faber). Then Spurge and Brodin can still play. Then Chissy and Bogo and Jiri and maybe one of our prized D prospects of the previous few years?

There - Faber can now be moved for Marner (likely next year though). Next year Faber + Harty/Trenin for Marner? Yes please. Sorry to all one-of-us fanatics. 

[M_Nels]

3 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

oh 

but what if Tkachuk is available? would you not trade ANY of them for him?

I'd say Rossi or Boldy not both on 1 deal but would be okay with one of them plus an Ohgren a Heidt (doesn't have to be them but similar level) and a pick.

Sorry, don't know if it's possible to multi-quote but could you tell me around when or what article you submitted the scenario so I can read it.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

2 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Crazy ODC ideas: 

• Boldy/Yurov and some other in and out for Ranty (colorado does not want to pay - we will next year)
• Rossi/Zeev for Tuch
• Faber Wally Ohgren - can also be in play

Yes, those seem like crazy terrible ideas. Trade out really good players for part of a 1 season when you could simply sign someone in the offseason.

The Wild can open cap space to sign high end talent they want in the summer. Why sacrifice future stars for a playoff run that will still fall short of a cup this year?

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, M_Nels said:

I'd say Rossi or Boldy not both on 1 deal but would be okay with one of them plus an Ohgren a Heidt (doesn't have to be them but similar level) and a pick.

Sorry, don't know if it's possible to multi-quote but could you tell me around when or what article you submitted the scenario so I can read it.

yeah i am not the best with quoting myself and sorry didn't mean to be a dick with my "go read it" comment. my recent idea was this - (yes a bit from the left field, but gives you a sense what i would give up and for who)

Crazy ODC ideas: 

• Boldy/Yurov and some other in and out for Ranty (colorado does not want to pay - we will next year)
• Rossi/Zeev for Tuch
• Faber Wally Ohgren - can also be in play

[OldDutchChip]

45 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Yes, those seem like crazy terrible ideas. Trade out really good players for part of a 1 season when you could simply sign someone in the offseason.

The Wild can open cap space to sign high end talent they want in the summer. Why sacrifice future stars for a playoff run that will still fall short of a cup this year?

you do the trade for Ranty with intention to re-sign and dealing boldy and some fillers may allow you to do that. you work it out with his agent and announce it like FL did w BT.

The Wild can open cap space to sign high end talent they want in the summer oh do tell how much cap space and what talent they are targeting? is that after they shell out 8 mm to rossi and pay Gus to save their ass again next year? Or what about money due to Marat and Lauko? Don't you want Chissy to play too? or no we trust in rookies....oh yeah i forgot MJ will be off the books HA HA so yeah lets be real - there won't be that much money around. but maybe we can scrap a bit for Brock Nelson. 

Why sacrifice future stars for a playoff run that will still fall short of a cup this year? because (a) there are no sure future stars and (b) your current superstar will leave otherwise 

Note - stop propping up these prospects. they are just that - prospects. Number 1 rated prospect - wally - is playing like trash (4 GAA with 850% save across both AHL and NHL is more than concerning). ohgren was back in AHL and we'll have to hold our excitement until he actually shows he is a star. so can we back off this hype? 

[Will D. Ness]

3 hours ago, M_Nels said:

Get real.

Come on, isn't it satisfying to throw endless shit on the wall with reckless abandon?

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

4 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

But if you're saying Yurov and Buium start next season in top 6/top 4 roles, I'd say you're denying the evidence that you've seen with your own eyes.

Faber came in from NCAA and wasn't nearly as acclaimed as Zeev and started as a top pairing guy. We will still have him on the team and a solid top two pairs, by the end of next year i could see him taking top 4 though not starting there. Kap came directly into the NHL from the KHL and lit it up. Yurov broke Kap's record for 20yr old points. From everything i read he isn't going to be the sensational generational talent Kap is, but he is an extremely complete 200 foot player. Start him on third line with Trenin and Foligno and he could probably work his way up before the end of the year.

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

cap penalties again .... you do realize that we are already in another cap penalty hell with foligno and harty and trenin? they make what 12 mil!! could we have used that 12 mil and signed someone better.....probably but it is what it is.

Cap penalties is a genuine reason why you can't get what you want and have to overpay for someone else to retain cap. We can debate Foligno/Hartzy/Trenin all we want, but at this point it's all water under the bridge. When it came to the Zuccarello/Foligno/Hartman resignings, I was on record saying we could afford 1. 

But now that we've got them with NMCs this year, it makes it awful hard to trade them out. Next year is much easier with Hartman getting the M-NTC. 

5 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

• Boldy/Yurov and some other in and out for Ranty (colorado does not want to pay - we will next year)
• Rossi/Zeev for Tuch
• Faber Wally Ohgren - can also be in play

I think the deal for Tuch is overpayment, I'm not sure if I like Ranty or not. To me, I'm not doing either, but would probably agree to Tuch-Rossi swap. Buium is too much of an overpayment. As for Boldy/Yurov, I've got to hold out in hopes that B. Tkachuk is in play. 

Why not Rantanen? He'll put up points, but I don't think I've seen the tenacity side of him that is needed to win in the playoffs. For me, that is a must. We have to raise the level of effort with the whole team. 

[mnfaninnc]

4 hours ago, M_Nels said:

Tell me how many guys immediately make the jump from the NCAA and are a top 4 d-man from the get.

I don't think it's as rare as you think. Fox and Makar did it and Buium may do it.

4 hours ago, M_Nels said:

1 player be it Tuch are Tkachuk aren't going to make up for what you're wanting to give away.

Nels, I've got to disagree here. Tkachuk moves the needle more than Tuch, but if you have a shot at Brady, it is a franchise changing deal. He is worth it.

[mnfaninnc]

3 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Then Spurge and Brodin can still play.

I'd much rather move Spurge. 

Last year, Faber's game slipped in the 2nd half. We then found out that he gutted it out with cracked ribs. I haven't seen him playing horrible and have kept my eye on him the last couple of games. He might be trying to do too much. But, if you guys are noticing something, my gut says he may be gutting it out through something.

[mnfaninnc]

38 minutes ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

Faber came in from NCAA and wasn't nearly as acclaimed as Zeev and started as a top pairing guy. We will still have him on the team and a solid top two pairs, by the end of next year i could see him taking top 4 though not starting there. Kap came directly into the NHL from the KHL and lit it up. Yurov broke Kap's record for 20yr old points. From everything i read he isn't going to be the sensational generational talent Kap is, but he is an extremely complete 200 foot player. Start him on third line with Trenin and Foligno and he could probably work his way up before the end of the year.

I thought Faber started off as #3 pairing for 2 games and playoffs. I believe he then started on #2 pairing until Spurgy went out for the year where he was elevated to top pairing. 

I am with you on Yurov, I think he's got a lot of talent and is gaining strength in Russia. I wouldn't start him with Trenin and Foligno, I'd start him on the 2nd line. I think he'll hit the ground running too, just like Kap.

Buium, I think can start in the top 4, but I think Brodin and Middleton have done enough to stay in that role. Buium learns on the fly and gets his chance when one is injured. While I think he's an excellent prospect, I've got to see him heavier like his brother. 

[OldDutchChip]

23 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Cap penalties is a genuine reason why you can't get what you want and have to overpay for someone else to retain cap. We can debate Foligno/Hartzy/Trenin all we want, but at this point it's all water under the bridge. When it came to the Zuccarello/Foligno/Hartman resignings, I was on record saying we could afford 1. 

But now that we've got them with NMCs this year, it makes it awful hard to trade them out. Next year is much easier with Hartman getting the M-NTC. 

I think the deal for Tuch is overpayment, I'm not sure if I like Ranty or not. To me, I'm not doing either, but would probably agree to Tuch-Rossi swap. Buium is too much of an overpayment. As for Boldy/Yurov, I've got to hold out in hopes that B. Tkachuk is in play. 

Why not Rantanen? He'll put up points, but I don't think I've seen the tenacity side of him that is needed to win in the playoffs. For me, that is a must. We have to raise the level of effort with the whole team. 

my point on cap - is money tied into crap is a bit different vs money tied into prime players - 

if you have 15 million invested in kaprizov and brodin and then you buy them out that really hurts

if you have 15 million invested in parise and suter (who played like shit and poop) that only hurts from financial standpoint 

but there is an underlying issue here that rarely gets discussed - the main point is that you are using the cap penalty as an excuse but instead you should really be held accountable to giving our 15 mil to shitty players

now is that something that is one and done? no as we see this continues with foligno harty trenin and others - and cumulatively that gives us another dead weight contract.

i understand that billy inherited crap but he has signed some questionable contacts too. the point is - know who gets the money and prioritize him. stop gifting folignos and trenins and hartys of the world overpays in money and term. 

But now that we've got them with NMCs this year, it makes it awful hard to trade them out. exactly that is another cap penalty but we don't look at it this way due to players still on our team (should parise and/or suter still be on Wild - you think they make any impact? of course not - but now we have an excuse - and that is what Billy and Owner wants - an excuse) Call these buffoons out but instead we are saying - oh no the cap penalties. that gets me riled up haha (sorry didn't meant to unload - but at some point we have to dig a bit deeper and ensure this doesn't happen again - but it does)

Ranty has it i believe - the IT factor. but i admit i am not a regular watcher of Avs so could be wrong. Id go Brady T, Ranty, Marner, Tuch. 

[OldDutchChip]

17 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I'd much rather move Spurge. 

Last year, Faber's game slipped in the 2nd half. We then found out that he gutted it out with cracked ribs. I haven't seen him playing horrible and have kept my eye on him the last couple of games. He might be trying to do too much. But, if you guys are noticing something, my gut says he may be gutting it out through something.

injury maybe, or just catching up with all the minutes he logged thus far, hitting that wall, who knows. but at 8.5 i want more and watching him play - he has regressed a bit. 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

57 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Why not Rantanen? He'll put up points, but I don't think I've seen the tenacity side of him that is needed to win in the playoffs. For me, that is a must. We have to raise the level of effort with the whole team. 

Boldy is on one of the better contracts for the Wild, and Rantanen will have a much higher cap hit in the future. Rantanen gets tons of points playing with McKinnon and Makar, but would Boldy put up similar numbers in the same role?

If the Wild give up another future top half of the lineup player to swap Boldy for Rantanen, while also using up a majority of the cap space they might have available, will that really move the needle significantly closer to contender status?

I don't think so. If the Wild trade Hartman with a secondary prospect for another team's prospect in the summer, eliminating his $4M cap hit, retain Boldy, Yurov, Buium, and sign Rantanen as an unrestricted free agent to play on a line with Boldy or Kaprizov, while also extending Kaprizov, then the Wild may ice a contender.

Obviously, there will be a lot of teams looking to sign the top free agents, but the Wild will have space and I wouldn't give away a top prospect to accelerate things when the plan is working as intended.

If the plan was to trade Boldy for Brady Tkachuk, who is also on a long-term good contract, then I might be able to see adding a top prospect, but that wasn't one of the trades proposed.

[Will D. Ness]

1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

He might be trying to do too much. 

I think Faber is 100% but his hockey instincts are off a little lately.

[OldDutchChip]

3 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Boldy is on one of the better contracts for the Wild, and Rantanen will have a much higher cap hit in the future. Rantanen gets tons of points playing with McKinnon and Makar, but would Boldy put up similar numbers in the same role?

If the Wild give up another future top half of the lineup player to swap Boldy for Rantanen, while also using up a majority of the cap space they might have available, will that really move the needle significantly closer to contender status?

I don't think so. If the Wild trade Hartman with a secondary prospect for another team's prospect in the summer, eliminating his $4M cap hit, retain Boldy, Yurov, Buium, and sign Rantanen as an unrestricted free agent to play on a line with Boldy or Kaprizov, while also extending Kaprizov, then the Wild may ice a contender.

Obviously, there will be a lot of teams looking to sign the top free agents, but the Wild will have space and I wouldn't give away a top prospect to accelerate things when the plan is working as intended.

If the plan was to trade Boldy for Brady Tkachuk, who is also on a long-term good contract, then I might be able to see adding a top prospect, but that wasn't one of the trades proposed.

Boldy is on one of the better contracts for the Wild, and Rantanen will have a much higher cap hit in the future. Rantanen gets tons of points playing with McKinnon and Makar, but would Boldy put up similar numbers in the same role? So what that Ranty will have a higher Cap hit? Aren't you saying we'll have cap? if we move Boldy or Rossi (eventual 8MM) for Ranty and boot Trenin off - that's Ranty's next contract. The 6'4'' dude had 92, 105, 104, and is now projected to have 118 pts. Let's stop Boldy to Ranty comparison now. There ain't one there. 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

23 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

So what that Ranty will have a higher Cap hit? Aren't you saying we'll have cap? if we move Boldy or Rossi (eventual 8MM) for Ranty and boot Trenin off - that's Ranty's next contract. The 6'4'' dude had 92, 105, 104, and is now projected to have 118 pts. Let's stop Boldy to Ranty comparison now. There ain't one there. 

I'm not saying that Rantanen isn't better, but I'd rather have both of them, and a top prospect, than just 1 of them. If Colorado doesn't want to afford him, the Wild could find a way to accommodate him without trading away Boldy.

[OldDutchChip]

9 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

I'm not saying that Rantanen isn't better, but I'd rather have both of them, and a top prospect, than just 1 of them. If Colorado doesn't want to afford him, the Wild could find a way to accommodate him without trading away Boldy.

we could be patient and wait it out but then more suitors become available. if Ranty costs Boldy and a prospect - you do that immediately. i doubt any of this will happen but it's a possibility.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

21 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

if Ranty costs Boldy and a prospect - you do that immediately.

If they had the same cap hit, I would agree, but you're possibly looking at a $6M cap hit difference and it's hard to say that you wouldn't be better off with both Boldy and Boesser or Ehlers than only having Rantanen and a Johansson-level player.

Rantanen is better, it's just unclear if he's worth another top 6 level forward compared to Boldy. Boldy was more productive at age 20 in the NHL and we have no idea what type of production he might have with MacKinnon and Makar. The Wild will need more talent and they won't have a lot of cap space if Rantanen and Kaprizov are taking up around $27M or more of the cap.

I understand where you're coming from on this one, but there is risk in trading away the upside of Boldy and his far lower cap hit. I can't feel good about including Yurov or Buium to do that. I would like the Wild to be playing fewer players like Johansson, Gaunce, and Merrill, Bogosian, or Chisholm, not more of them.