Article: Zeev Buium Can Succeed Where Calen Addison Failed

[Will D. Ness]

26 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Seems to me like Billy has been doing a pretty solid job in the trade market since taking over. 

His trades have been good... except for maybe Fluery (gave up a 2nd) and Zucker (comes down to Lambos).

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

This was my thought too, why not try the youngens and see what they can do. At the very least, you get cap space to tick up for the TDL. Hunt needs to learn from NHL players at this point. 

However, I don't believe Middleton was the guy to jettison. I think Merrill is in this scenario, and may still be since you can almost completely bury him in the A. Let's face it, Middleton has a skill set that we do not currently have ready in Iowa. Bogosian is the same way. I think you get more out of a Middleton than you do out of a Cole or Soucy. 

As for Trenin, I believe he is a guy that Heinzy really, really wanted. He fits under our cap penalties now. I think he's going to end up being a better signing than some of the bigger names. I don't see the Marchessault fit with his size, and I certainly don't see Stammer coming over here. Nashville's got a lot more to offer, both in the city and with no state tax. I have to wonder how much of that Stamkos took into consideration. Nashville is another one of those cities where you get past the loop and you've got some nice rural places to raise a family without having to deal with brutal cold. 

Stamkos is a lot more risky for me and expensive. But Marchy - for me would have been great pick up. Oh well 😞 

The last coach that really wanted his guy was Dean and now we have Freddy for next 4 years. So let's hope Trenin is not a repeat. 

 

[B1GKappa97]

2 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

His trades have been good... except for maybe Fluery (gave up a 2nd) and Zucker (comes down to Lambos).

That Zucker deal got screwed by COVID and the league deciding to give EVERY team an equal chance at #1 that draft 😞 of course Pittsburgh wasn't going to elect to give us that pick in that draft. 

[OldDutchChip]

37 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Aside from, you know, trying to keep the team competitive and in the post-season instead of slashing and burning the roster to make it top-heavy and ending up with lottery picks season after season. 

Other than that, plus adding some more Russian players and giving us a better long-term outlook than we had when Kaprizov first arrived, you're right! 

we are going the wrong way in "competitive" criteria my friend! there is no post - season success with this group for another 5-6 years. and with Kaprizov leaving that will only ensure that we stay irrelevant for long long time! but we will continue to hear how loaded we are in our prospect line and how 3rd line under-appreciated center will strengthen our core principles. yeap.

[B1GKappa97]

Just now, OldDutchChip said:

we are going the wrong way in "competitive" criteria my friend! there is no post - season success with this group for another 5-6 years. and with Kaprizov leaving that will only ensure that we stay irrelevant for long long time! but we will continue to hear how loaded we are in our prospect line and how 3rd line under-appreciated center will strengthen our core principles. yeap.

Really? 5 to 6 years? What are you basing that off of? 

All that Kaprizov leaving will ensure is that we have $10M+ available for other players. 

[OldDutchChip]

34 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Oh, you don't like getting Ohgren and Faber for Fiala? 

You don't like getting Gustavvsson for a 35-year old Cam Talbot? 

You'd rather have Kaapo Kahkonen than Jake Middleton?

Greenway for a 2nd, which turned into Riley Heidt, was a bad deal in your opinion?

Seems to me like Billy has been doing a pretty solid job in the trade market since taking over.. if he has to trade Kaprizov, nothing he gets back will equal what we lose, but there's certainly a track record to believe he may be able to make the most of it all the same.. 

Ohgren is unproven - stop making him out to be this amazing proven scorer. Fiala, for all the hate he got from i imagine people like you, gave us a second line threat and was often times a line of one, before Boldy joined. But no - he was worthless. Oh yeah do tell. 

Again - Faber was luck. He could have been another O'Rourke. But no wait we shouldn't be surprised - all was known to our scout guru and foreseen by GM. Right just like it has in year 5 - about to be top 5 team. top 5 from the bottom. 

Greenway for a 2nd, which turned into Riley Heidt, was a bad deal in your opinion? how da F would i know if Heidt has't played a game yet? he can be another beckman? 

You'd rather have Kaapo Kahkonen than Jake Middleton? i'd rather not have Midds for 4 years at his cap hit. You seem happy about it. Ok

[OldDutchChip]

8 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Really? 5 to 6 years? What are you basing that off of? 

All that Kaprizov leaving will ensure is that we have $10M+ available for other players. 

10+ mil available for Trenins and Middletons. or do you have another superstar lined up? or Billy probably does? yes he does. 

[B1GKappa97]

Just now, OldDutchChip said:

Ohgren is unproven - stop making him out to be this amazing proven scorer. Fiala, for all the hate he got from i imagine people like you, gave us a second line threat and was often times a line of one, before Boldy joined. But no - he was worthless. Oh yeah do tell. 

Again - Faber was luck. He could have been another O'Rourke. But no wait we shouldn't be surprised - all was known to our scout guru and foreseen by GM. Right just like it has in year 5 - about to be top 5 team. top 5 from the bottom. 

Greenway for a 2nd, which turned into Riley Heidt, was a bad deal in your opinion? how da F would i know if Heidt has't played a game yet? he can be another beckman? 

You'd rather have Kaapo Kahkonen than Jake Middleton? i'd rather not have Midds for 4 years at his cap hit. You seem happy about it. Ok

Oh right, I get it now: No matter what kind of return we get back, its a bad trade until that prospect makes it to the NHL. 

And any success is all luck and nothing to do with evaluation. 

Noted. 

[OldDutchChip]

18 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

His trades have been good... except for maybe Fluery (gave up a 2nd) and Zucker (comes down to Lambos).

talbot 2.5 913%

gustafson - 5.6 765%

i am only slightly off on gus

but he SUCKS

[OldDutchChip]

1 minute ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Oh right, I get it now: No matter what kind of return we get back, its a bad trade until that prospect makes it to the NHL. 

And any success is all luck and nothing to do with evaluation. 

Noted. 

yeah i want to see him on big stage before i celebrate. you go ahead though. 

[B1GKappa97]

1 minute ago, OldDutchChip said:

10+ mil available for Trenins and Middletons. or do you have another superstar lined up? or Billy probably does? yes he does. 

I'm sure that somebody who is top-6 quality will become available and we'll be able to fit them into the salary cap. They are unlikely to be better than Kaprizov individually, but should still help alleviate some of the lost production.

Just now, OldDutchChip said:

yeah i want to see him on big stage before i celebrate. you go ahead though. 

I just think its disingenuous to suggest that getting a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line defensive forward is a bad move if that doesn't turn into an NHL player. That's some excellent value for a guy who wasn't in the team's long-term plans (despite the contract extension he received...)

[Pewterschmidt]

55 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Oh, you don't like getting Ohgren and Faber for Fiala? 

You don't like getting Gustavvsson for a 35-year old Cam Talbot? 

You'd rather have Kaapo Kahkonen than Jake Middleton?

Greenway for a 2nd, which turned into Riley Heidt, was a bad deal in your opinion?

Seems to me like Billy has been doing a pretty solid job in the trade market since taking over.. if he has to trade Kaprizov, nothing he gets back will equal what we lose, but there's certainly a track record to believe he may be able to make the most of it all the same.. 

While Ogzy is still 99% unproven, he showed signs of future NHL'r and Heidt is 100% hype at this point, I agree that this is a nice list of net positive transactions for Guerin.  I'm not doing a yah, but to your post.  I'm just shining a light on the leaps of faith being made on the prospects.

There I said something nice about Guerin today.

[Pewterschmidt]

24 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

All that Kaprizov leaving will ensure is that we have $10M+ available for other players. 

$10M to spend on three Tyson Broast's and one Trenin??  If 97 leaves we're going to look more like CHI/SJ than STL/COL

97 is a unicorn in this league.  He cannot be replaced with volume.  

[OldDutchChip]

6 minutes ago, B1GKappa97 said:

I'm sure that somebody who is top-6 quality will become available and we'll be able to fit them into the salary cap. They are unlikely to be better than Kaprizov individually, but should still help alleviate some of the lost production.

I just think its disingenuous to suggest that getting a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line defensive forward is a bad move if that doesn't turn into an NHL player. That's some excellent value for a guy who wasn't in the team's long-term plans (despite the contract extension he received...)

I'm sure that somebody who is top-6 quality will become available and we'll be able to fit them into the salary cap. They are unlikely to be better than Kaprizov individually, but should still help alleviate some of the lost production.

We are not talking about another top - 6 quality player. And saying "they are unlikely to be better" is given them a chance to actually perhaps be better, right? but that is completely false. We will not have the same player. Sure, we can use the money and get us a Perron and maybe Zucker....is that acceptable replacement for Kaprizov? Really that is acceptable to you as a fan? 

I just think its disingenuous to suggest that getting a 2nd round pick for a 3rd line defensive forward is a bad move if that doesn't turn into an NHL player.

i dunno not really seeing a big argument here. Greeny was good enough for what we paid him, he actually was very underpaid for that year GREEF line was brutalizing the league. So we traded him for a 2nd round pick. ok. 

[Pewterschmidt]

2 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

he actually was very underpaid for that year GREEF line was brutalizing the league.

That one year where the GREEF line was relevant has gotten Foligno and Greenway overpaid for what they bring to the game each night.

[OldDutchChip]

5 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

That one year where the GREEF line was relevant has gotten Foligno and Greenway overpaid for what they bring to the game each night.

yeah but right now - i'd rather have Greeny instead of MJ. and they make about the same. trade greeny back for MJ? he was a fun teammate. although i always wish he would fight more often....like on every shift he should have been punching anyone and everyone. 

[Protec]

41 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

His trades have been good... except for maybe Fluery (gave up a 2nd) and Zucker (comes down to Lambos).

If those are your worst deals, I'm saying arm-chair GMs can be a fickle bunch. Myself included. NoJo sucks and everything but two years at 2M isn't like a cardinal sin. Looks terrible compared to other options and is unlikely to turn around but could be much worse. You really can't set the bar at perfect. It's too complicated. 

[Will D. Ness]

20 minutes ago, Protec said:

If those are your worst deals, I'm saying arm-chair GMs can be a fickle bunch. Myself included. NoJo sucks and everything but two years at 2M isn't like a cardinal sin. Looks terrible compared to other options and is unlikely to turn around but could be much worse. You really can't set the bar at perfect. It's too complicated. 

I'm trying to scrub NoJo from my mind so that is my excuse.

[Will D. Ness]

55 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

talbot 2.5 913%

gustafson - 5.6 765%

i am only slightly off on gus

but he SUCKS

Gus is young and has a chance for redemption.  1 awesome year and 1 shit year.

Bringing in Fluery was the mistake IMO.  

[OldDutchChip]

4 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

Gus is young and has a chance for redemption.  1 awesome year and 1 shit year.

Bringing in Fluery was the mistake IMO.  

3.75 mil for a goalie who is below 900....that is absurd. we can find a backup below 1 mil that would get us better results. can't go back, but Billy messed it up with MAF. Should have kept riding Tally, could have had him mentoring Wally and be in a much better spot - both financially (4.5 mil COMBINED for Tally+Wally would be doable, and would be cheaper than now) and obviously performance (Tally had a good year - whereas our combo was brutal)

FIRE BILLY

[Protec]

1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

3.75 mil for a goalie who is below 900....that is absurd. we can find a backup below 1 mil that would get us better results. can't go back, but Billy messed it up with MAF. Should have kept riding Tally, could have had him mentoring Wally and be in a much better spot - both financially (4.5 mil COMBINED for Tally+Wally would be doable, and would be cheaper than now) and obviously performance (Tally had a good year - whereas our combo was brutal)

FIRE BILLY

When Gus got his arbitration deal it was coming off a good season. That same year Talbot was poor. 

You can't go back in time to say so obviously what shoulda happened. I wanted to see Gus traded whole his stock was highest. MN didn't have a clear backup being Wallstedt had yet to log serious NHL minutes and that might have made him more expensive sooner. The goalie market was also not super desperate for goalies like Gus with small sample size. Only after a poor season can you really say, he's overpaid or belongs in the SHL. 

MN is only behind the 8-ball according to writers and forum-gripe'rs. In reality, they only need to endure one more season of harsh penalties. There's a mixture of players and prospects that allow MN to keep moving forward despite what may develop. 

Fletcher and Fenton pained themselves into a corner. If Guerin was fired today, he's one GM who can say the organization is left better off than when he took over. Prospects and no albatross contracts for aging vets other than Spurgeon's which isn't horrible by today's measure.

[LittleBallofHate]

Nah man, you've gotto set a precedent with these agents. If you keep letting agents put you over a barrel on pay dates, then you have an even bigger problem.

That would have looked Pathetic if, as the GM, you let a middling goaltender's agent hold your team-building process hostage with threats like this dolt did. This was right on the tail end of #97's agent holding the Wild's future hostage (but that situation was more rightfully so, given the generational talent).

So, after Kappy, agents starting to try to get bold, but it was with much more replaceable talent. Some fans viewed the Talbot deal as haughty... personally, I liked the precedent that set. When you looked at how presumptuous that agent was getting, would you prefer a super soft precedent where you have agents making the GM roll over? 

It is a bit "talking out the both sides of your mouth" though, as far as wanting the GM to sign big win-now FA to appease the star, but then saying we should have signed a replacement plug instead... I mean, signing a HoF goaltender could be considered a "commitment to winning" to keep your guy. It just hasn't statistically worked out.

To me signing TalPlug would have been a terrible result. As far as winning now, it looks to me like the goaltender equivalent to a Foligno signing. They would have been overpaying a mid-tier goaltender, while setting an incredibly weak precedent with agents. If you don't like some of the current deals we have on plugs, just imagine what it could look like if your GM gets a rep for rolling over when an agent makes threats, or that it is even acceptable for agents to open their yappers in that way.

[OldDutchChip]

14 minutes ago, Protec said:

When Gus got his arbitration deal it was coming off a good season. That same year Talbot was poor. 

You can't go back in time to say so obviously what shoulda happened. I wanted to see Gus traded whole his stock was highest. MN didn't have a clear backup being Wallstedt had yet to log serious NHL minutes and that might have made him more expensive sooner. The goalie market was also not super desperate for goalies like Gus with small sample size. Only after a poor season can you really say, he's overpaid or belongs in the SHL. 

MN is only behind the 8-ball according to writers and forum-gripe'rs. In reality, they only need to endure one more season of harsh penalties. There's a mixture of players and prospects that allow MN to keep moving forward despite what may develop. 

Fletcher and Fenton pained themselves into a corner. If Guerin was fired today, he's one GM who can say the organization is left better off than when he took over. Prospects and no albatross contracts for aging vets other than Spurgeon's which isn't horrible by today's measure.

Sorry quick edit (i need to read it at least once before pressing send 😜)

i am looking at Guerin's tenure in cumulative terms, and there is a tendency to sign early, block the escape route and give more money and term citing intangibles such as grit and team-first. Tally was much more consistent than Gus and should have been our starter period for the playoffs if not for idiot GM. And kept, without the need for MAF or Gus. 

There's a mixture of players and prospects that allow MN to keep moving forward despite what may develop. Yes, every team has that mixture of prospects and vets to put together a team and move forward....i want my team to be there at the end and have a chance. Not just have a rotating carousel of fresh youngsters and over the hill vets with grit.

Billy is just as much a failure as any of the predecessors. Five years and nothing. We have finished out of the playoffs and will likely do much worse this year. Kap will leave. We have Freddy, Midds, Harty, Zuccy, MJ, Trenin, Foligno on the hook for 2-4 more years. That is his legacy. Prioritizing prospects and vets, and doing NOT one thing to prioritize Kaprizov. Fletch got us Kaprizov. Guerin will loose him. I don't care if he signed him. He signed him for 5 years, not 8. And is doing everything he can to loose him. 

FIRE Billy 🔥

Edited July 8 by OldDutchChip

[mnfaninnc]

On 7/8/2024 at 12:02 PM, OldDutchChip said:

The last coach that really wanted his guy was Dean and now we have Freddy for next 4 years. So let's hope Trenin is not a repeat. 

But, Freddy can be waived and sent to Iowa.