Article: The Wild Can't Let Perfect Be the Enemy Of the Good With Rossi

[Tony Abbott]

3 hours ago, Pewterschmidt said:

Regardless of 97's thoughts, trading Rossi would be one more unforced error by Guerin so then one has to ask "how many more does he get before he proves he's unqualified for the job". 

I'm back to thinking (Guerin - NHL career) = Fenton.  Think how crazy that doesn't sound.  If you remove Faber from Guerin's resume because it was possible due to Fenton's moves what has Guerin accomplished beside locking up the apathetic old core, creating cap hell, Middleton, and a couple of NHL/Wild investigations into possible Guerin misconduct, Nojo X2.  That's not much to show for his time in MN.

I'm not going to give him credit for signing Ek, 97 or Boldy because Nordy could have pulled that off.  Seriously they weren't going anywhere.

You don't even have to remove Faber if you want to make this analogy. Faber's Guerin's Fiala.

[Willy the poor boy]

46 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

25 goals and 14 assists for amazing 39 pts

So pretty much like Hartman but w more power play time and less responsibility to rough it up

Got it! Untouchable indeed

You're fast becoming the king of non sequiturs.

[Willy the poor boy]

48 minutes ago, Citizen Strife said:

Geez.  Bust my balls, won't you.

 

You hit a nerve.

[Tony Abbott]

1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

Yes, I mentioned that it may have to be a combo w a prospect and a pick 

and yes, his value is inflated, give. That he outperformed based on some advance stats and is on a good contract

it’s not an unlikely scenario, but I’ll agree to disagree 

What advanced stats did he outperform? Not the goals, he scored 21 on 21.82 expected goals. If anything, he "should" have had another one.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

53 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

I think you forgot Igor Larionov

5’9 170

wow wild fans! Rejoice 

I think they both like to eat scrambled eggs for breakfast and bird watch, yeap Rossi is the next Larionov! 
love comparisons!

Are you seriously comparing a 29 year old rookie to a 22 year old rookie?

Larionov also averaged 65 points per 80 games over the next 8 seasons, and finished his career with 3 Stanley Cups, so I'm not sure your snarky comment is as effective as you thought it might be.

[Tony Abbott]

Also, I don't gamble, but if anyone sets the Over/Under at 14.5 assists for Rossi next year, I'm taking out a loan to hammer the over. 

[Imyourhuckleberry]

1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

yes, his value is inflated given that he outperformed based on some advance stats and is on a good contract

it’s not an unlikely scenario, but I’ll agree to disagree 

None of us know the return one could get for Rossi, particularly this season when they still have serious cap concerns. I think most would accept the loss for a legit star in his prime, but many of those guys are on much larger contracts and that complicates the situation.

Rossi is valuable on his contract, and I think we all agree on that. If Guerin were to upgrade to some unknown player that we cannot currently evaluate, we'll all have a reaction to that deal, and some might think it's a great deal, but the concern is an underwhelming deal that doesn't truly move the needle, but reduces assets, including cap space.

Guerin could keep Rossi and make other good deals/signings, or he could trade Rossi and make a good deal, but most seem to believe keeping Rossi might be valuable since teams generally need to have at least a few lines contributing to winning hockey in order to make a meaningful playoff run.

[OldDutchChip]

25 minutes ago, Tony Abbott said:

What advanced stats did he outperform? Not the goals, he scored 21 on 21.82 expected goals. If anything, he "should" have had another one.

Based on  5v5 stats you mention previously he was outperforming others, or am I wrong?

ok book him for another goal, yippee

Edited June 5 by OldDutchChip

[OldDutchChip]

26 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Are you seriously comparing a 29 year old rookie to a 22 year old rookie?

Larionov also averaged 65 points per 80 games over the next 8 seasons, and finished his career with 3 Stanley Cups, so I'm not sure your snarky comment is as effective as you thought it might be.

I’m showing silliness of comparing players using only one metric for the purpose

Saying he is the next Marchand just because of size is as crazy as saying that he is also another coming of Larionov 

silly

[OldDutchChip]

18 minutes ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

None of us know the return one could get for Rossi, particularly this season when they still have serious cap concerns. I think most would accept the loss for a legit star in his prime, but many of those guys are on much larger contracts and that complicates the situation.

Rossi is valuable on his contract, and I think we all agree on that. If Guerin were to upgrade to some unknown player that we cannot currently evaluate, we'll all have a reaction to that deal, and some might think it's a great deal, but the concern is an underwhelming deal that doesn't truly move the needle, but reduces assets, including cap space.

Guerin could keep Rossi and make other good deals/signings, or he could trade Rossi and make a good deal, but most seem to believe keeping Rossi might be valuable since teams generally need to have at least a few lines contributing to winning hockey in order to make a meaningful playoff run.

The point they I’m making is that it’s not about Rossi but instead showing a superstar that this team is where he should stay. To bet on Rossi, prospects and gradual progression is foolish and may cost us the best player in franchise history 

[Tony Abbott]

The idea that Minnesota has to move Rossi for immediate help is also ridiculous, to me, personally. He IS immediate help, especially if he has the improvement you'd expect from a rookie turning 23 next season. He was 37th in even-strength goals last year with 19. How many of the dudes ahead of him on that list are going to be available via trade? Maybe Brady Tkachuk, if he wants out? I could see Toronto or Vancouver wanting to offload Nylander or Miller's contracts... but they're full NMC protected. Nik Ehlers, if he doesn't put Minnesota on his 10-team No-Trade list?

You're talking about (maybe) two guys who (maybe) are an upgrade over what you should expect for Rossi next season. I'd rather stay pat with the younger guy who plays a more premium position and comes with more years of team control.

[Tony Abbott]

16 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

Based on  5v5 stats you mention previously he was outperforming others, or am I wrong?

ok book him for another goal, yippee

18 goals on 14.63 expected at 5-on-5. I think if he does regress there it'll even out with positive regression on the power play. After seeing him improve last offseason, though, when he says he's going to focus on shooting more next year, I believe him, which would help combat any regression.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

10 minutes ago, OldDutchChip said:

it’s not about Rossi but instead showing a superstar that this team is where he should stay. To bet on Rossi, prospects and gradual progression is foolish and may cost us the best player in franchise history 

I believe you are more worried about Kaprizov leaving than most. It's always about having the best team around your best players, but how you get there isn't always as simple as trading all of the depth for other stars. You need a lot of talent surrounding the stars to win at the highest levels. Hopefully Guerin gets it right, whether that's trading Rossi or not.

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, Protec said:

Guerin should get guff for GMing a National Team. Prestigious title, my ass! Better do good with the Wild.

I don't really care about the National Team, or the World's, or this 4 team International tournament. But, with Guerin GMing this, he gets to know certain players on other teams. He gets to develop a relationship (even though it's friendly). He gets to call other USA players during the season (to just talk about the National team). 

I think this spotlight is good for him. Can he recruit players without recruiting players? Can he compliment players without crossing the line? When we have money again, could this role help him get some more talent here? I think a case can be made that it could.

Brady Tkachuk was on that National team. Was there a way of finding out how he feels about Ottawa without asking him how he feels about Ottawa? Is there a way for him to know if Brady would be interested in coming back to the States, maybe to a northern midwestern team that shall remain nameless? You never know what could come up off the record, and Shooter is well known for keeping things in the vault. 

I wonder who would possibly be coming in '25? I wonder who might be traded for at the '25 TDL to be resigned? 

On the flip side, Shooter gets to see how these guys carry themselves and how they interact with others. He may cross players off his list after he sees this, and he is big on character and chemistry.

[Protec]

35 minutes ago, Tony Abbott said:

Also, I don't gamble, but if anyone sets the Over/Under at 14.5 assists for Rossi next year, I'm taking out a loan to hammer the over. 

This is perhaps an indication of the linemates he had. His junior and AHL numbers were heavier in the assists department for sure. It's a safe bet he'll score 50pts. 

The Wild really just need to upgrade through free agency and balance the lines. Rossi doesn't have to be traded at all. I just think that rumor started or was floated out to attract talks or generate options. 

I don't think Guerin is looking for a way to goof up and move a former 1st round pick, NHL-guy for nothing. We are only speculating. Sure Rossi is an offensive threat. The trade-off for playoffs and hard-nosed, fast hockey can't be ddiscounted. Can Rossi slow down or defend against Barkov? The reach goes to the bigger guy. Will Rossi out-muscle or have leverage on Hyman or Krieder around the net? Size or lack of it also has to be considered. Timing of extensions is another angle.

I'm less attached to players and want the Wild to win as a team. If Guerin traded Rossi for Provorov, that'd be okay if CBJ took Spurgeon back and suddenly the Wild had 10M to work with to sign UFAs. Just sayin, you can't know for sure either what's cooking behind the scenes or what Rossi will be in the future playoffs the Wild might return to. Being a good player and a good asset has rarely helped the Wild other than Fiala. The Wild perhaps coulda cashed in on Gus last Summer, but holding onto Dumba was not too great. Just saying Rossi is always gonna be small and one concussion or heart related issue and that could be the end of that. We don't know what the organization does internally. Might be something, might be nothing.

 

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, Tony Abbott said:

The idea that Minnesota has to move Rossi for immediate help is also ridiculous, to me, personally. He IS immediate help, especially if he has the improvement you'd expect from a rookie turning 23 next season. He was 37th in even-strength goals last year with 19. How many of the dudes ahead of him on that list are going to be available via trade? Maybe Brady Tkachuk, if he wants out? I could see Toronto or Vancouver wanting to offload Nylander or Miller's contracts... but they're full NMC protected. Nik Ehlers, if he doesn't put Minnesota on his 10-team No-Trade list?

You're talking about (maybe) two guys who (maybe) are an upgrade over what you should expect for Rossi next season. I'd rather stay pat with the younger guy who plays a more premium position and comes with more years of team control.

Let’s first define priorities here And number 1 on that list is ensuring kaprizov stays beyond his current contract - Agree?

If YES then it bring a question on what you can do to influence his decision. obviously some things remain out of your control but some stuff you can do to put yourself in better position 

I have mentioned before that the easiest one would appoint kap as new captain immediately and let him grow and absorb the role and all that it entails

second is my opinion that current progression of the team is not enough to entice kap to stay. In perfect world he is extended and there’s more patience BUT that’s not where we’re at here. If we don’t act for the now our best player WILL leave 

I’m arguing that we bet our chips on Kap and push all in. That means we use our assets and upgrade for the NOW. Rossi and our prospects and picks qualify. You swung for the fences or take some chances, you can skip tkachuk and instead focus on combo of buchnevich and Guentzel to bring proven players and perhaps a buddy to kap and that would be the path I’d chose.

 

[Tony Abbott]

1 hour ago, OldDutchChip said:

Let’s first define priorities here And number 1 on that list is ensuring kaprizov stays beyond his current contract - Agree?

Sure, but is Marco Rossi detrimental to their chances, or does he help? I bet his presence is a positive factor in convincing him to stay. 

[Pewterschmidt]

2 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

Let’s first define priorities here And number 1 on that list is ensuring kaprizov stays beyond his current contract - Agree?

If YES then it bring a question on what you can do to influence his decision. obviously some things remain out of your control but some stuff you can do to put yourself in better position 

I have mentioned before that the easiest one would appoint kap as new captain immediately and let him grow and absorb the role and all that it entails

second is my opinion that current progression of the team is not enough to entice kap to stay. In perfect world he is extended and there’s more patience BUT that’s not where we’re at here. If we don’t act for the now our best player WILL leave 

I’m arguing that we bet our chips on Kap and push all in. That means we use our assets and upgrade for the NOW. Rossi and our prospects and picks qualify. You swung for the fences or take some chances, you can skip tkachuk and instead focus on combo of buchnevich and Guentzel to bring proven players and perhaps a buddy to kap and that would be the path I’d chose.

 

ODC spittin' facts.  

I even like the Buch+Guentz for a couple of hypotheticals.  Those are the type of impact players + striking gold on 2 or more prospects for 97 to say "OK we're building a legit contender here.  I'll stay a while longer"

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, Tony Abbott said:

Sure, but is Marco Rossi detrimental to their chances, or does he help? I bet his presence is a positive factor in convincing him to stay. 

My response got lost in network abyss in Oregon, so this is my third attempt and a much shorter one! 😎

Marco is just a useful trade piece and one that I’d be willing to parlay into something more proven. Yes he can be a useful 2/3 line player, but reality is the wild are in a pickle and need to shake things up. I fully believe that unless we show more to kap, he will pack and leave. His GF is likely already in a coastal city trying to find a place. 

 

 

[OldDutchChip]

1 hour ago, Pewterschmidt said:

ODC spittin' facts.  

I even like the Buch+Guentz for a couple of hypotheticals.  Those are the type of impact players + striking gold on 2 or more prospects for 97 to say "OK we're building a legit contender here.  I'll stay a while longer"

Yup! Billy get it done 🍻 

[mnhockeyfan03]

I have said this before and will say it again.  For this offseason to be a success Rossi, Gus, Spurgeon, Freddie and Nojo have to be moved.  You then have $20mm to bring in 4-5 very good players to fill out the roster.  This team needs a big shakeup.  Stop trying to keep running it back.  This team needs a big attitude change.  

[MacGyver]

31 minutes ago, mnhockeyfan03 said:

I have said this before and will say it again.  For this offseason to be a success Rossi, Gus, Spurgeon, Freddie and Nojo have to be moved.  You then have $20mm to bring in 4-5 very good players to fill out the roster.  This team needs a big shakeup.  Stop trying to keep running it back.  This team needs a big attitude change.  

And who are these 4 or 5 very good players that are just waiting for the Wild to make them an offer? These players that would prefer to go to the Wild over any other offer from any other team? These 4 or 5 players that are going to form the perfect union of competitiveness and team harmony? Players have more control now than ever before on where they will go and if they will go particularly the upper echelon of good players. This all sounds so desperate. Get through the buyouts we always knew that. Guerin effed this up with his Billy boy's club contracts. That was the value we had that could have been traded. Now everyone wants to gut the rest of the team.

If Kaprizov wants to leave he will leave despite what players come and go. He may want out for an entirely different reason than the team make up. His girlfriend may want a change of climate. Maybe he thinks Guerin is just a complete ass. Maybe he wants the bright lights big city. Maybe he has a personality clash with a couple players that Guerin signed long term?  Who knows?

[mnfaninnc]

20 hours ago, OldDutchChip said:

second is my opinion that current progression of the team is not enough to entice kap to stay. In perfect world he is extended and there’s more patience BUT that’s not where we’re at here. If we don’t act for the now our best player WILL leave 

I’m arguing that we bet our chips on Kap and push all in. That means we use our assets and upgrade for the NOW. Rossi and our prospects and picks qualify. You swung for the fences or take some chances, you can skip tkachuk and instead focus on combo of buchnevich and Guentzel to bring proven players and perhaps a buddy to kap and that would be the path I’d chose.

1. I think that Kaprizov understands that '25 is the year where we are going to gain some pretty good UFA talent. Next season is the last season we have the steep penalties, and I think this plan he is aware of. That said, this is one more year where the kids can grow and he can see where we're headed. If I'm not mistaken, I believe July 1st 2025 is the soonest he can sign an extension. I'm thinking the team will sign a couple of free agents and then go to Kaprizov for the extension. If he won't sign, Guerin will try to send him to where he wants to go much like Fiala went. 
2. It seems like we have a different projection to what a difference B. Tkachuk would make throughout the team. His value is outside of his numbers, and his numbers are really good. Tkachuk helps us both get to the playoffs and win in the playoffs. It is true that Guentzel and Buchnevich are 2 players for the same price sort of, but as the cap goes up, Tkachuk's deal looks better and better. I'd suggest, though, that some of our prospects will be making a difference by then and we'll need space for them. Though unproven, their less expensive contracts with a top tier player in Tkachuk probably help more than the lower tier of Guentzel and Buchnevich. Tkachuk would be expensive to acquire, the other 2 would be UFAs. 

As for the Kaptaincy, it is a nice gesture, but at this point, I believe the A is enough, at least for now. But, I do agree with you that Spurgeon needs to turn in the C.

[TCMooch]

Never thought this team would  be dumb enough to consider trading premium position that we've NEEDED since we can into this league because....why again?

Rossi fucking finished 5th overall in points for rookies this season.

He was second for rookies with goals scored.

He finished 9th in rookies from a points per game perspective. Most of his points were even strength.

Why the fuck would you want to look to trade a center that put up these numbers in their rookie season?

 

[Tony Abbott]

Russo's getting the sense that the Wild are finally coming to their senses after their pro scouting meetings -- basically, he's on an ELC, they're not contenders now, why not give him another year?