Article: John Hynes Must Do More Than Get Wild Back To Basics

[Tony Abbott]

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[viper3119]

FIRST

[Citizen Strife]

The interesting thing to note is that two years ago, the Wild had a crazy offense (for them anyway).  They kept themselves in games and got the playoffs by winning games or getting to OT a ton.  That did not lead to any success in the playoffs.  Last year, the opposite.  They were stifled offensively, but shut people down and Gus played like a monster.  Still, they got outplayed by Dallas.  

I don't really know the answer here.  A shorthanded team somehow got four points out of Boston in a week, who have been a top 5 team for years.  I think an answer does come down to what style of team the Wild end up facing.  I think they really struggle against a high-octane style (Edmonton or Toronto, who just have so much offense from their top lines).  The Wild got a point in the Sweden game to be fair, but never at any point was I watching thinking, "Yeah, I think the Wild are going to win this."  Sure enough, OT happened and Nylander just skated on by.

There's something to be said for having a crazy defensive team.  The Wild have been doing "enough" offense to get by, while defense and goaltending have seriously improved.  I do believe there is still a talent and depth issue.  Less this year knowing Rossi and especially Faber are just amazing.  I'm not going to worry about any playoff talk right now though.  The team had to go 10-3 just to get back on the bubble.  They have to keep that going pretty much all of the remaining season to stand a chance.

[UK_Soldier]

Gamethread?

 

[FredJohnson]

John Hynes Must Do More Than Get Wild Back To Basics

But playing Basics is a good first step for our squad. They were gripping their sticks so hard there was sawdust on the ice.

[Need4speed99]

Answer to the wilds playoffs issue... stop brining in aging bottom six guys and start giving the youth a shot and then play the best talent.

Basically, stop doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result. Change it up. Cut ties with aging vets and let the youth play(I understand they can't now). Geurin is using fletch's same method just with "his" guys. 

[UK_Soldier]

Reimer... Reimer...Reimer

GG NoJo...but it's gonna be a journey to earning back MoJo.

[Protec]

2 hours ago, Need4speed99 said:

Answer to the wilds playoffs issue... stop brining in aging bottom six guys and start giving the youth a shot and then play the best talent.

Basically, stop doing the same thing year after year and expecting a different result. Change it up. Cut ties with aging vets and let the youth play(I understand they can't now). Geurin is using fletch's same method just with "his" guys. 

Kinda but not really. 

To me this most recent stretch shows the coaches were the problem more than the injuries and players being bums.

Now that the team has found it's groove again with a fresh start we can start to make less emotional criticisms of the roster or weakest links. 

Seems pretty obvious by now Evason/Woods weren't getting the team going or helping them win.

The PK has been way better. PP isn't nearly as bad and despite injuries players are stepping up with productivity while they catch up on W's.

The young guys aren't ready to dominate the NHL.

[Need4speed99]

6 hours ago, Protec said:

Kinda but not really. 

To me this most recent stretch shows the coaches were the problem more than the injuries and players being bums.

Now that the team has found it's groove again with a fresh start we can start to make less emotional criticisms of the roster or weakest links. 

Seems pretty obvious by now Evason/Woods weren't getting the team going or helping them win.

The PK has been way better. PP isn't nearly as bad and despite injuries players are stepping up with productivity while they catch up on W's.

The young guys aren't ready to dominate the NHL.

How do we know the young guys can't be better than some of the aging vets, they don't get a chance.

The wild's MO is to keep bringing in aging vets as stop gaps and it ends in the same result. 

I'm not saying coaching wasn't the problem for the start of this year but they always seem to be JUST good enough to make the playoffs then get bounced. They have what, 8 first round exits. Time to try a new strategy. 

[MNCountryLife]

3 hours ago, Need4speed99 said:

How do we know the young guys can't be better than some of the aging vets, they don't get a chance

We did sign some aging vets this year.  But many of the players on the roster started here as rookies.  Faber, Boldy, Hunt, Dewar, Duhaime and even Ek and Kirill got on the roster as rookies.  Shaw should probably be on this list as well.  Hope his recovery is doing well.  

Could we have more..  I suppose..  but who?  Walker is probably the closest and he has only recently been playing in a way that could earn him a drive up 35.  I think the issue here is that while we do have rookies most of them are 1 to 3 years out from being in the N... or may never actually be good enough to play up.  Beckman and Walker need to step up or they will end up career AHL players.  

Next year I expect the Wall to step in for Fleury.  Hunt will step in full time for Goligoski.  Lambos will need to step up this year in the A to make Bogosian expendable.  

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

3 hours ago, Need4speed99 said:

How do we know the young guys can't be better than some of the aging vets, they don't get a chance.

The wild's MO is to keep bringing in aging vets as stop gaps and it ends in the same result. 

I'm not saying coaching wasn't the problem for the start of this year but they always seem to be JUST good enough to make the playoffs then get bounced. They have what, 8 first round exits. Time to try a new strategy. 

I'm hoping that they send Merrill to the minors to rotate Lambos, O'Rourke, Spacek and Masters next year. He's absolutely awful. Goli will be gone and likely replaced by Hunt, I could see Guerin resigning Bogosian. Duhaime and Maroon will head down the road to be replaced by Dino and Shawsy. Novak, Firstov and Yurov all have a shot at being good enough to make the team but Novak is a long shot. 

KK- EEK- Boldy

Dino- Rossi- Zucc

Hartman- Dewar- Mojo

Shaw- Gaudreau- Foligno

Spurgeon- Middleton

Brodin- Faber

Mermis/ Bogosian- Hunt

 

Gus Bus

Wall

 

Doesn't look so bad actually...

[raithis]

3 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

I'm hoping that they send Merrill to the minors to rotate Lambos, O'Rourke, Spacek and Masters next year. He's absolutely awful. Goli will be gone and likely replaced by Hunt, I could see Guerin resigning Bogosian. Duhaime and Maroon will head down the road to be replaced by Dino and Shawsy. Novak, Firstov and Yurov all have a shot at being good enough to make the team but Novak is a long shot. 

KK- EEK- Boldy

Dino- Rossi- Zucc

Hartman- Dewar- Mojo

Shaw- Gaudreau- Foligno

Spurgeon- Middleton

Brodin- Faber

Mermis/ Bogosian- Hunt

 

Gus Bus

Wall

 

Doesn't look so bad actually...

My concern with that is most of the team is smaller and/or slight in build.  If there's cap space and they are willing to sign smaller deals, I'd keep Maroon or Duhaime (or a free agent that's comparable) to sub in or out on a checking line depending on match-ups.  Just because we haven't been able to have 23 players doesn't mean we can't next year once a few contracts are gone.

My other concern is that we are assuming that some of these guys are ready to be in the NHL next year.  Maybe they don't make it.  Maybe Shaw doesn't get to where he can come back.  He's said in the past that it took a long time to get his timing back with his skating afterwards.

The other thing that seems to continually get lost in the "give all the prospects a chance" mantra is that it's incredibly short-sighted.  The last thing you want to do with a wave of youth in a roster is to bring it all in at once.  It's hard to develop everyone at once in the NHL and so you get a bunch of kids who are in over their heads that may never reach their potential - or it takes longer to get them there.  The other problem is that then their ELCs start ending around the same time.  It's best to stagger them a bit and let them develop more so you can afford to keep the ones you want to keep rather than being forced to trade some of them in 2-3 years.

[MNCountryLife]

29 minutes ago, raithis said:

The last thing you want to do with a wave of youth in a roster is to bring it all in at once.  It's hard to develop everyone at once in the NHL and so you get a bunch of kids who are in over their heads that may never reach their potential - or it takes longer to get them there

Excellent point.

[Need4speed99]

3 hours ago, raithis said:

My concern with that is most of the team is smaller and/or slight in build.  If there's cap space and they are willing to sign smaller deals, I'd keep Maroon or Duhaime (or a free agent that's comparable) to sub in or out on a checking line depending on match-ups.  Just because we haven't been able to have 23 players doesn't mean we can't next year once a few contracts are gone.

My other concern is that we are assuming that some of these guys are ready to be in the NHL next year.  Maybe they don't make it.  Maybe Shaw doesn't get to where he can come back.  He's said in the past that it took a long time to get his timing back with his skating afterwards.

The other thing that seems to continually get lost in the "give all the prospects a chance" mantra is that it's incredibly short-sighted.  The last thing you want to do with a wave of youth in a roster is to bring it all in at once.  It's hard to develop everyone at once in the NHL and so you get a bunch of kids who are in over their heads that may never reach their potential - or it takes longer to get them there.  The other problem is that then their ELCs start ending around the same time.  It's best to stagger them a bit and let them develop more so you can afford to keep the ones you want to keep rather than being forced to trade some of them in 2-3 years.

That's not entirely true about the youth movement. Chicago built their dynasty on drafting and bring those guys up pretty continually, as did the current avalanche, they did have a few solid vets but most of those winning teams were around the same age and came up together.

My point, the wild have continually stuck with the same theory and its clearly not working. And signing all these older guys to 3-5 yr deals was stupid when you have all this talent waiting in the wings. 

You already know where foligno, Hartman, Merril etc ceiling is, we don't with some of these young guys. 

This team has been the same for the last 15 years, while they make the playoffs they never go anywhere. Great for regular season success but clearly never a contender.

Leopold nor the gms ever want to do a full rebuild just patchwork with the aging vets, it makes them the definition of continually mediocre. What have they got to lose by changing it up. Besides if they do hit some more Homeruns with the current prospects this team could be the next Blackhawks but not if they don't give them a chance and see what they have.

[JakeOClubs]

What everybody seems to miss is that the goalie dropped about 7 percentage points in the playoffs last year.  That team with the goaltending they had in the regular season would have beaten the Stars.

This regular season, same thing before and after the change.

They can make the saves that they didn't in both stretches of bad hockey. 

Yes, they can play poorly and lose games and step it up and win games and yes teams need to overcome goaltending variation...but they can't drop off like they did.  Hopefully they will improve.

That and the JEE injury was especially impactful.

Many teams have been playoff underachievers but learned and became Champions.  Considering only one team a year can win, we don't know yet if this group will be Champions or not. People want a strip down rebuild but I haven't seen evidence that would be better than building from where we are.  That would be an interesting thing to investigate, is one approach better?

[raithis]

19 hours ago, Need4speed99 said:

That's not entirely true about the youth movement. Chicago built their dynasty on drafting and bring those guys up pretty continually, as did the current avalanche, they did have a few solid vets but most of those winning teams were around the same age and came up together.

My point, the wild have continually stuck with the same theory and its clearly not working. And signing all these older guys to 3-5 yr deals was stupid when you have all this talent waiting in the wings. 

You already know where foligno, Hartman, Merril etc ceiling is, we don't with some of these young guys. 

This team has been the same for the last 15 years, while they make the playoffs they never go anywhere. Great for regular season success but clearly never a contender.

Leopold nor the gms ever want to do a full rebuild just patchwork with the aging vets, it makes them the definition of continually mediocre. What have they got to lose by changing it up. Besides if they do hit some more Homeruns with the current prospects this team could be the next Blackhawks but not if they don't give them a chance and see what they have.

Chicago also became what they are today because of that same reason.  You have to have a continuous flow of young players to keep carrying that wave forward rather than to have the bottom fall out of it.  Chicago had to let go of young players in order to keep that wave going as long as it did.  Imagine what they would have been if they had been a bit smarter and could have kept players like Panarin?  They might not have ever crashed. 

For every team that happens to do well with bringing in a bunch of prospects up too fast, there are a number of others who flounder and the can't miss players never become what they could have been because the team didn't develop them properly.  Personally I'd rather develop them before we end up like those other teams.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be ever given a chance or that their ceiling isn't far past the players already on the roster.  I'm saying that the prospects we have haven't shown that they are capable of consistently meeting the NHL floor yet and that we have better players right now.  We could make a case that Hunt is better than (or at least equivalent to) Merrill and Goligoski, but it probably makes more sense to keep him in the AHL until next year.  I fully expect he displaces one of those two next year if he stays on his current trajectory.

The Wild have not stayed with the same theory.  This is different than in the past.  The foundation is much stronger.  There wasn't much in the prospect pool when Guerin got here.  The good ones have risen up into the NHL and some of next ones will be there either next year or the year after that.  Yes, we all want it to happen now, but doing so isn't the smart way to approach it.

We don't know that the GMs haven't been willing to rebuild.  We do know that the owner has wanted to always make the playoffs.  At the end of the day, we can't change that unless we can buy the team or you can convince everyone to ignore them and stop buying tickets, jerseys, etc until Leipold decides to sell it like when he got rid of the Predators.

To play devil's advocate, the answer to what they might lose could be Kaprizov.  The kid wants to win.  I don't think he stays if we tank for a couple years to get top several top end draft picks like Chicago, Colorado, Edmonton, etc.  Then people wouldn't just say we are wasting Kaprizov's best years because we wouldn't recover until we also wasted The best years of Boldy, Rossi, and Faber too.  Staying competitive at least gives us a chance, but in order to rebuild without acting tearing up the floorboards, you have to be patient and smart with developing the players you bring in.

[mnfaninnc]

Mid season coaching changes are a real challenge. Even though Hynes may have had a couple of weeks of a heads up, he only really got to see a handful of games. Perhaps Guerin gave him access to previous game tape? Likely.

I love watching Good Bones with my granddaughter who's 9. She laughs at demo day and celebrates furniture day all in the course of an hour. She really likes seeing what Mina and Karen can do from gutted houses. Why do I bring this up? Because this is kind of what John Hynes had to do.

Back to the basics is akin to checking the foundation. In Good Bones, there almost always are foundation issues. Without a good foundation, whatever they do, could fall away at any time. This is what back to the basics is about. And, this is also why practice is necessary, and with a new coach needs to be mandatory. Hynes had to check the stress of the whole foundation, and make sure everyone was on the same page. He really gets tossed in when his top 2 defenders don't return from the tunnel and he has to teach and stress what he feels is important. Basics set everything up just like a foundation does.

Next he gutted the house. In Good Bones, they move walls and reconfigure the floorplan. Well that's kind of like scrapping the old lines and pairs and making new ones. No Brodin, no Spurgeon? Well, we'll just throw Faber and Middleton together. What about a 2nd pair? By default it became Goligoski and Bogosian (and that pairing looks like it has a little chemistry). And then we get Hunt, Merrill, and Mermis on the same page. Hunt made some mistakes (they can't all be Faber transitions) and probably needs one more A assignment before becoming fulltime up north. (And, when the playoffs start, Hunt's at least got enough speed to keep up, I'd put him in before Goligoski and Merrill)

Why don't we try our top center with our top 2 wings? We've been clamoring for a Boldy-Ek-Kaprizov line. Those who haven't note that Zuccarello is Kaprizov's best friend and we don't want to upset Kaprizov. Hynes rightly noticed, success trumps friendship and changed it. That moved Zuccarello down a line with Rossi and Johansson. But Zuccy gets hurt so Hartman who didn't have a spot so was banished to the 4th line gets a chance and suddenly we have a secondary scoring line! Dewar and Duhaime stay together just like the 2 bedrooms in the back, and Maroon-Gaudreau-Foligno join together, really, as the leftovers. And it worked. 

So, Tony is right, he does need to do more. But, that stuff takes time, and time is a limited commodity. There was no practice during the Christmas break. Everyone could come back refreshed. But, there was 3 days in between the Red Wings and Jets. I would have to say at least 2 of those days would be further implementation days of new stuff Hynes wants to see. As with any change, first you have to practice it, then you implement it into games. But it does have a work in progress timeframe. Hynes' "furniture day" will be spread out for a long time, and we may not really even get the full Hynes gameplan until next season. But, he can start moving in some new plays, new emphasis, more details to what he's looking for. 

To me, this seems to be how Hynes has moved into his role. He hasn't changed things all at once, just little adjustments each week to make each player better and the unit better. 

[Quebec1648]

I am highly skeptical that a coaching change is the magic key for fixing things come playoff time. The Wild have had 8 consecutive first round exits under multiple coaching staffs. We have already changed coaches multiple times, yet the results are always the same. 

Whenever the Wild make the playoffs, they struggle to score goals, the goalies have a few to many leaks, and the special teams are awful. We have changed coaches multiple times, but these problems keep persisting. 

Therefore, I think the Wild front office has to rethink the types of players they are acquiring, to correct the deficiencies that always appear come playoff time.