Article: Are the Wild's Extensions Clouding A Prospect's Future With the Team?

[Luke Sims]

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[viper3119]

Fair points.  These contract extensions and NMCs are coming back to bite us.

[Willy the poor boy]

"His fellow countrymen Vladislav Firstov, Alexander Khovanov, and Dimitri Sokolov had an unpleasant experience in the AHL."

 

Yes. maybe it's best to not tempt fate...

Not sure why everything is shaded in this post. shrug

Edited December 20, 2023 by Willy the poor boy

[Will D. Ness]

Considering the maturity factor of our current two rookies (Brock Steady and Rossi) it is also hard to argue against the value of patience with top prospects.

The preordained Calder winner is just a child playing a mans game in Chicago as they properly tank and Fabes probably should be the true Calder trophy winner as he skates 30 minutes a night dominating the ice.

But... alas... we live in a world of shiny lures and the kid from Chicago has a glitter ball evolving over his head as he makes sick moves in a losing effort and will win the trophy as Chicago magically gets another #1 pick in 2024.

If Yurov is Brock steady ready baby then yeah it is a travesty.  

[IllicitFive]

15 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

"His fellow countrymen Vladislav Firstov, Alexander Khovanov, and Dimitri Sokolov had an unpleasant experience in the AHL."

 

Yes. maybe it's best to not tempt fate...

Not sure why everything is shaded in this post. shrug

Does this just mean its a shady post?

[MNCountryLife]

Building a team through prospects requires many things. 

• A keen eye on judging strengths and weaknesses.  Pre and post draft.
• Proper patience to let players develop at the proper pace.
• Ability to properly develop players.  Teach.
• Manage Cap space to ensure players that are ready are able to play and pay them when they become core players.
• Manage roster to ensure space is available for developing players.

Does GMBG have all these skills.  The first 2 he seems to do well at.  Walker and Beckman digressing seems to suggest the Wild's IA team is not doing well at teaching.  This is very concerning.  I don't count Rossi here.  He had the skill.. Just needed to get over the mental hurdles and beef up a bit.  

The last 2 we probably won't know until the 25-26 season.  If we don't have a handful of solid rookies jumping in that year then BG will have failed immensely at several things listed above.

[FredJohnson]

1 hour ago, Willy the poor boy said:

Not sure why everything is shaded in this post. shrug

This page's functionality mucks up sometimes.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

KHL is a very good place to train for the NHL. No hurry. Yurov should be well positioned to take Johansson's spot following next season.

[raithis]

I remember making a lot of these same points in one of my first posts on this site.  I just don't see Yurov coming over until he knows he can make the NHL roster.

With the extensions this make things tougher, but it's still doable after we get past the next cap buyout penalty year.  After the large chunk comes off, we have room to have 23 players on our roster AND scratch people if they are playing poorly.  This opens up more room for those that are playing well.

Yurov playing one more year in the KHL is probably better for him (and us) in the long run.  I think he comes in more ready to hit the ice than if he plays in the AHL next season.  We also maybe get him in time for the playoffs to better help with a run (assuming we make the playoffs in 24-25).

[Jon]

3 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Considering the maturity factor of our current two rookies (Brock Steady and Rossi) it is also hard to argue against the value of patience with top prospects.

The preordained Calder winner is just a child playing a mans game in Chicago as they properly tank and Fabes probably should be the true Calder trophy winner as he skates 30 minutes a night dominating the ice.

But... alas... we live in a world of shiny lures and the kid from Chicago has a glitter ball evolving over his head as he makes sick moves in a losing effort and will win the trophy as Chicago magically gets another #1 pick in 2024.

If Yurov is Brock steady ready baby then yeah it is a travesty.  

I find this case for Faber Calder compelling. Because what if the players were on opposite teams? Wouldn’t we be screaming for Bedard to win the Calder? Would we care about a Blackhawks Dman playing 30+ mins a night playing nice defensive hockey?

[Will D. Ness]

9 minutes ago, Jon said:

I find this case for Faber Calder compelling. Because what if the players were on opposite teams? Wouldn’t we be screaming for Bedard to win the Calder? Would we care about a Blackhawks Dman playing 30+ mins a night playing nice defensive hockey?

Of course we would, but that is because we would be blinded by the glitter ball.😀

[Beast]

I am so sick of hearing we have no room because of Hartman, Gaudreau, Johansson, and Folgino.  Absolutely ridiculous.

We’re talking about a kid who is being compared to some of the great Russian players of our lifetime.  And we “don’t have room?”  If that’s honestly what the front office thinks, fire them all with extreme prejudice.  That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

[joebou15]

One of the biggest reasons I didn't understand each of the deals signed before training camp. You had the chance to shed some real money, and open up spots for younger, cheaper guys to take. Hell, if you're going to play bad enough to get the coach fired, why not let the kids play?

If you can't spend money that you're trotting out a really bad Zach Bogosian, an awful Alex Goligoski, and bringing up an unripened Daemon Hunt on Defense, then shedding the money was perhaps the better move in the short and long term.

 

But, alas, our scandalous Prez of Hockey Ops just couldn't help himself, because damn it, he likes those guys. Prospect pool opportunities be damned.

Edited December 21, 2023 by joebou15

[Imyourhuckleberry]

13 hours ago, Beast said:

We’re talking about a kid who is being compared to some of the great Russian players of our lifetime.  And we “don’t have room?”  If that’s honestly what the front office thinks, fire them all with extreme prejudice.  That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.

None of those Russian players played in the NHL prior to their age 21 seasons, and none of them were a dominant type of player until their age 23 seasons.

Yurov turns 20 tomorrow. He'll slot in about the same time as the other Russian players who turned out to be great players. His strength will be better at that time along with his English, and he'll be NHL ready right away.

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

These extensions were a very limiting move. It doesn't make our team very attractive for prospects at all. I know there is some conversation whether or not prospects will be ready to come up next year, but this move limits us to get rid of Dewar or Duhaime outside of the one slot we will have open without Maroon. Personally, I think both those guys have been awesome for our forth line. They are both staples on the penalty kill and fairly young. I would much rather see Nojo or Foligno sent down the road then either of these kids. 

I'm guessing Yurov was also looking at what was available on this team and it may be the reason he decided to stay another year in the KHL. Dino is also scheduled to come over and Ohgren will be pushing for a spot as well. Down in the AHL we have Walker, Beckman, Masters, Lambos, Hunt, O'Rourke, Novak, Spacek and Bankier. KHL has Dino coming over, Yurov *was* expected and Firstov is still on loan and showing signs of improvement. I understand not all these guys will be ready or will even make the team at any point but that is an awful haul of prospects to leave 1 d spot and 3 forward spots open.

In my opinion Dewar has earned a shot at more minutes and Duhaime is a solid 2 way 3-4th liner. I'm not going to be super upset if Duhaime goes but will be pretty livid if they let go of a 24yr old who has put up 8 points playing 11mins a night while we let Nojo 33yr, 12pts, playing 16mins a night on the second line glide around like he is lost on a NTC.  Or Foligno for that matter 11Pts playing 15 mins/ night.

For that matter we might as well have a couple pylons instead of Merrill and Goli. They have both been visably awful this year and I simply can't understand how they are both playing instead of Mermis. Merill should be sent down to the A to give us some cap relief and Goli should be a permanent fixture in the Prosser booth.

[kapislife]

Simple, you tell him that those guys are place holders and they suck. If he's good he can beat out the likes of Johansson and another year older and slower zucc

[mnfaninnc]

21 hours ago, MNCountryLife said:

Building a team through prospects requires many things. 

• A keen eye on judging strengths and weaknesses.  Pre and post draft.
• Proper patience to let players develop at the proper pace.
• Ability to properly develop players.  Teach.
• Manage Cap space to ensure players that are ready are able to play and pay them when they become core players.
• Manage roster to ensure space is available for developing players.

Does GMBG have all these skills.  The first 2 he seems to do well at.  Walker and Beckman digressing seems to suggest the Wild's IA team is not doing well at teaching.  This is very concerning.  I don't count Rossi here.  He had the skill.. Just needed to get over the mental hurdles and beef up a bit.  

The last 2 we probably won't know until the 25-26 season.  If we don't have a handful of solid rookies jumping in that year then BG will have failed immensely at several things listed above.

I really like this take. Guerin really needs a cap manager, though, this is not his forte, and he needs an assistance with expertise in this area. 

As for Iowa, it seemed like under Army, Walker and Beckman did better. But here is my extreme beef with the A: strength development. 

I would think that massive resources would be sent to Des Moines. They'd have a really good weight room and training facility. They'd have first rate skating instruction. They'd have a "shot doctor." They'd actually have more resources than the big club had.

I'll approach this from a different perspective. When a Twin goes down with injury, he usually rehabs in St. Paul if it's a minor injury. We saw this with several players this year. However, when a player had a significant injury and needs to rehab, they send him to Ft. Myers. Why? That's where their best facility is for physical training. Some of these guys actually suit up and play when they're beginning again for Ft. Myers. 

We only have 2 minor leagues, but the best prospects are going to be in Des Moines if they're in NA. Why wouldn't we dump the money into that training facility? 

As for Beckman and Walker, to me, Beckman must add at least 15 lbs. of strength, and probably 20. He's not going to be asked to blow someone up, but he needs it for board battles, net front battles, and protecting the puck. He should be looking directly at Rossi and saying to himself "that could be me."

Walker, I believe, is always going to be a fringe NHL player/1st call up type. He's got some speed, and would do himself a huge favor by adding strength, but the skills just aren't quite good enough to be a full time NHL player. 

[Pewterschmidt]

2 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

Or Foligno for that matter 11Pts playing 15 mins/ night.

Foligno's ineptitude is making me appreciate Fred more.  No joke.  Fred can at least make a hockey play (ie - stick handle wizardry, passing vision, create offense).  How painful is it going to be to watch Foligno lumber around the ice once he's lost a full step of speed.  Think Reeves.  We're a season away from having a Reeves clone at $4M/yr.  Brutal.

[Will D. Ness]

23 minutes ago, Pewterschmidt said:

Foligno's ineptitude is making me appreciate Fred more.  No joke.  Fred can at least make a hockey play (ie - stick handle wizardry, passing vision, create offense).  How painful is it going to be to watch Foligno lumber around the ice once he's lost a full step of speed.  Think Reeves.  We're a season away from having a Reeves clone at $4M/yr.  Brutal.

Foligno is by far the worst extension of the bunch.  I do think that he will be much better than Reeves though... at least the first couple years.  The last two years could get ugly.  

[TheGoosesAreLooses]

3 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

Foligno is by far the worst extension of the bunch.  I do think that he will be much better than Reeves though... at least the first couple years.  The last two years could get ugly.  

Better than Reeves isn't saying much. I just don't understand the term on that one and the NMC's on all three. I would have been much more positive if it was Hartman at 4 years. He deserved a pay bump and is young enough to give some term. Foligno cost us a ton of penalty time in playoffs and provided no spark or points. His regular season was pedestrian at best for 3M and then they gave him a raise, term and a NMC? I felt like he might have pictures of Guerin doing something unmentionable to his family dog.

[MNCountryLife]

1 hour ago, mnfaninnc said:

I would think that massive resources would be sent to Des Moines.

Couldn't agree more.  Literally the place that feeds future victories for your team. 

[Protec]

Geurin screwed up this past off-season because he somehow felt the NoJo-Boldy duo would last. He kept Foligno for 1M too much on that term abandoning his previously more frugal deals m.o.

NoJo was a mistake, shoulda signed Nosek at center. Shoulda traded Addison sooner and given Foligno less AAV. Then you don't need to sign Khaira and you have 2.5M right now with better center depth and room for a wing like Walker or Beckman. If that doesn't look good you can add a player.

Guerin erased his flexibility and put all the eggs in one veteran basket. All I can say it, let's hope he learns his lesson, reigns in his ego, and doesn't become a GM who begins to adhere to much to his guys or waits too long to move on. 

It wouldn't be as costly as others but could a Foligno buyout be in the future?

[Pewterschmidt]

2 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

I would have been much more positive if it was Hartman at 4 years.

And Hartman has consistently made hockey plays.  Droughts? sure.  Penalties? Ok.  But he's proven to be able to deliver.  Why he get's lumped in with Foligno I will never understand.  

[M_Nels]

2 hours ago, TheGoosesAreLooses said:

Better than Reeves isn't saying much. I just don't understand the term on that one and the NMC's on all three. I would have been much more positive if it was Hartman at 4 years. He deserved a pay bump and is young enough to give some term. Foligno cost us a ton of penalty time in playoffs and provided no spark or points. His regular season was pedestrian at best for 3M and then they gave him a raise, term and a NMC? I felt like he might have pictures of Guerin doing something unmentionable to his family dog.

Biggest head scratcher of the bunch, wasn't happy when it was announced and not happy now. The ONLY positive spin I can put on it is that he'll be a better version of Reaves and at least as good as Maroon and Guerin won't have to search the open market for the vocal leader, gritty, experienced type thus not trading away any draft capital. I'm sure it'll age like milk years 3 and 4 but we'll see.

[mnfaninnc]

My problem was the 2 years for Zuccarello, completely unneeded. Year by year with guys his age. I thought they should have let Hartman walk and kept Foligno. Foligno's deal, I believe was too high and based upon Foligno history, when it goes down hill, a cliff is what he goes off of. That's just basic bloodlines observation.

Foligno's got to lose about 3 steps to get to Reaves level, and he's still effective. My bet is that injuries start to impact him, though. As for the kids, I wondered about Yurov being ready next year. Of course we'll never really know his measureables, but I'd think he still needs to add strength and I trust the Russian program to focus more on this.

Dino should be ready. Ohgren is going to need a year. Firstov, though, should be able to come into training camp. I'd really like to see what he looks like. Were there any truth to the rumors that he was homesick and wanted to develop at home, and that it wasn't a problem with the organization?

So, this is an honest question. We here on HW are complete amateurs when evaluating talent. However, what kind of eye test does it take to see that Goligoski and Merrill are really playing terrible? What does Guerin see when he looks down and watches, or does he focus on smoozing someone? If I were him, I think I'd be having a conversation with the player trying to find out what's going on and if he's really looking for a change of scenery, because it's not working out right now.

I get the NMCs and things, but, there are ways to get that waived. Having Mermis here and bagging one of them a few times might do the trick. Of course, Merrill needs no help getting to the A. 

Hunt looks like he has a little more work to do. I could see a scenario where he learns up here, perhaps the coaches give him a little extra coaching time and video? Perhaps he can get a little more skating lessons? But, here is my worry: We no longer have a defense coach with Woods gone. Last time he got sent down, he was a beast in the A. Maybe one more time?

We could really use a Defensive Coordinator who can make sure that the defenders are learning what they need to and are all getting the same message. Don't mess up this great corps of prospects on the blue line by giving cheap development!