Article: The Wild Need To End the Top-Line Hartman Experiment

[viper3119]

On 7/15/2023 at 3:23 PM, Will D. Ness said:

Doesn't Rossi weigh more than Hartman?  The problem isn't size, it's attitude.

Hartman out weighs Rossi by 15 lbs.

[mnfaninnc]

22 hours ago, goaliemon said:

And even more so, this. If Rossi develops that F.U. attitude that GMBG wants, That line (Zucc-Rossi-Kap) will be big enough, especially since Kap plays bigger then his frame already.

You're dreaming. The outcome of this line will be alright in the regular season and be completely smothered in the playoffs. Which will mean 1 more 1 and done. The issue isn't height, it's weight, and your superstar is not the guy you want taking the punishment for the line. I would feel differently if Rossi showed up at 190-195, that's pretty stocky for a 5'9" guy, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Rossi was showing off endurance/resistance training in a video last season. That's awful nice what he could do, but it is definitely not bulk up training, which is what he needs. Like what Ek looked like when he came back from his 1st summer break. I think we'll learn an awful lot about Rossi by the look he has coming into camp, and for that matter, Addison as well. If they still look tiny, it's time to move on. 

Maybe, Rossi can be part of a package that goes and gets Logan Cooley from AZ, if AZ might be a little fearful of him not coming in? Cooley has denied that, but, well until he's signed, you never know. Can Cooley be as candid as McBain was with Shooter? As I remember it, Shooter went to BC to chat with his 3 prospects there. 2/3 of them have since been traded. My interpretation of that is that Shooter doesn't want players here who don't want to be here. As a former player, he has a good feeling for what the players are going through and what they're thinking. I believe Shooter moved McBain to AZ because McBain didn't want to spend time in Iowa. I believe Shooter moved Nesterenko because he just wasn't good enough in his opinion. AZ has an awful lot of prospects right now. Perhaps getting one who is a little more ready would be enticing to them?

[mnfaninnc]

10 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

I'm not sure Rossi is a great fit with either of those lines. Eriksson-Ek had some heavy lifting to do defensively alongside Boldy and Johansson and I'm not sure Rossi is up to that task. Those two were -5 through 6 playoff games without him.

This may be true, but who was plugged in to center that line? We all knew how important Ek was at C, and it was a serious downgrade from there. If Rossi is, indeed, ready to make the jump, will hustle and not glide or stand, and will push the pace without deferring, he could be successful between those 2. He supposedly has chemistry with Boldy from the A, and his speed with Johansson should be a match. Rossi's reputation is being a 200' player. If Rossi has gained the strength needed to defend, his instincts should help out defensively. 

So, it all depends on how this offseason bulk up goes. Rossi's got the build to have great edges and turn guys off balance. He needs a little edge in his game physically, and a lot more strength. I'm hoping he'll be good and I'll be very disappointed in him if he does not looked far more bulked up.

As a caveat to that, if Addison and Rossi do not look bulked up (same goes for O'Rourke and Beckman), I would question highly the job of strength and conditioning coaches in the organization. 

And, on a different front, how can a hitting coach keep his job when the best qualifying hitter on your team is below .250? Massive amounts of strike outs and an offense that gets easily dominated by above average pitching. How does that guy still have a job. Why aren't hitters going the other way with 2 strikes, just trying to get on base? The philosophy of exit velocity, an analytics darling stat, has failed. A better strategy is hit it where they ain't. 

[mnfaninnc]

2 hours ago, viper3119 said:

Hartman out weighs Rossi by 15 lbs.

Let's be honest, though, Rossi is never going to be a Hartman in attitude. I think the attitude we want from Rossi isn't the grizzle, but it's not deferring, not gliding, not standing around, but taking the puck and driving play. Don't worry about the mistakes, I can handle aggressive mistakes. 

[Protec]

The Wild don't need to end the Hartman position on the top line. It's worked pretty good for a couple seasons. There's nothing on paper that blows its doors off. There's no urgent need to dissolve it.

[B1GKappa97]

They absolutely need to just put Ek on line 1. I really don't care that it didn't immediately click last year. He is more capable of holding his weight and if we want guys to quit messing with Kap, having somebody that's able to defend him while on the ice AT THE SAME TIME would be huge versus having to wait to send a Foligno/Reaves/DesLauries/Maroon at a guy after the fact.

Plus, as we saw when he opened up Boldy's game, teams respect his ability to get to the net. With Hartman, they're willing to take their chances to stop Kaprizov. You want to give Ek some freebie rebounds in front? I think he'll bury those more than Hartman has. You want to stop Ek from getting those freebies? That buys Kaprizov more space to find a snipe shot.

Hartman has been okay but Ek can do exactly what he does, only better. Just let them build that chemistry.  

And then reunite Rossi and Boldy. With Mojo on the other side, these guys should be able to motor all over the ice and they'll be better fits with Marco's style than trying to square-peg him with bottom-6ers like Foligno and Geaudreau.

[Protec]

These are fine ideas but my point was more direct, the Wild don't have to pioneer all new lines. 

Looking for chemistry is a good idea. How good is the new chemistry? Same as the old, better, worse? 

It has been true to this point that any center with Kaprizov and the Norwegian Hobbit is gonna do fine. Will Ek make them unstoppable? You guys said it, would you want one dominant line and everything else or two more balanced top lines?

I really think it's unwise to begin counting Rossi chickens before they hatch again this season.

[Will D. Ness]

I love this debate, but I don't really have a strong horse in this one though.  I would like to see Rossi given one last chance to be a future of this team... and let's face it he isn't going to succeed grinding it out.  

Hartman would thrive on a line grinding it out.  So it just makes sense to me to give the kid a shot.  If not with KK97 and Zucc, then maybe a 3rd line designed for speed and puck handling?  Sammy needs a shot too.  Freddy/Rossi/Sammy?

[Imyourhuckleberry]

10 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

With Mojo on the other side, these guys should be able to motor all over the ice and they'll be better fits with Marco's style than trying to square-peg him with bottom-6ers like Foligno and Geaudreau.

I think Boldy can play with anyone, but I think he's maybe around average defensively right now. I doubt Rossi is coming into the league really strong on defense. Johansson is weak on defense and doesn't hit anyone.

Those guys might put some pressure on the opposition when they have the puck, but when they don't have the puck(probably around 52% of the time), top lines might eat them up. Evason may not want a soft line.

Gaudreau was really good when he had the puck alone with the goalie, in shootouts, and Rossi's best skill is passing. Prior to last season, Foligno had done a good job on scoring opportunities. The prior 3 seasons combined, he scored on just over 20% of shots that made it on goal.  Even if you include all shot attempts, his shooting percentage was over 12.5% the prior 3 years.

My point is that Rossi would be playing along with guys who have shown some ability to finish if you put him with Gaudreau and Foligno, and they could help him on the defensive end and winning puck possession battles all over the ice. Maybe it helps him play bigger playing with Foligno, and these veterans might thrive if his passing is as good as advertised.

It's not quite the same as giving Rossi just 12.5 minutes per night on the 4th line like they did last year.

Dewar, Maroon, Duhaime makes a lot of sense to me. Dewar is good defensively and was pretty good setting up scoring opportunities, including for guys last season that didn't have a ton of high level skill--they didn't always finish, but he made plenty of solid plays. Should make for a solid checking line.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but if I'm Evason and don't want any soft lines, those are the lines I'd be most comfortable with when everyone is healthy. Playing balanced lines could make the Wild more difficult to play against than rolling out a soft scoring line and 2 power checking lines.

It provides each line with someone to exert that "grit first" style the Wild are trying to be known for, without requiring it to be one of their top 3 scorers. Of course, some nagging injuries will switch up lines and I imagine they'll try some different options throughout preseason to see where the chemistry is good and where it isn't, but these are the lines I'd be thinking to start with as camp approaches.

Sometimes what initially makes sense on paper doesn't work when you try in game situations, so you have to go a different direction. I completely was on board with putting JEE with KK97 and Zuccarello before they tried that, but it didn't work at the level they hoped and it weakened another line, so they reversed course and were stronger after having done so.

I'm sure Evason will figure things out. He's been doing a good job doing just that, most of the time, since he was hired.

[B1GKappa97]

19 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

The issue isn't height, it's weight, and your superstar is not the guy you want taking the punishment for the line. I would feel differently if Rossi showed up at 190-195, that's pretty stocky for a 5'9" guy, but I'm not holding my breath. 

Rossi was showing off endurance/resistance training in a video last season. That's awful nice what he could do, but it is definitely not bulk up training, which is what he needs.\

Honestly I always wonder if it isn't a vanity thing. To gain muscle you have to gain weight, which means forgoing a six-pack during the summer months when everyone wants to hit the beaches. Especially young folk.

Similar to how Cordarelle Patterson once passed up working with Michael Irvin in the offseason so he could run around on a Cali beach working on his abs, I imagine these young guys aren't bought in to the idea of losing their beach bods for a year or two in the name of added strength. 

Or at least I assume that's why they're so resistant to regular lifts, because I don't know any other reason they'd struggle so much to add functional weight at this point. If Addison was fully dedicated to his lifts, he ought to be a beast by now. Its been years since he was a pro. Rossi had myocarditis and had to take a break from lifting I'm sure, but he should be recovered from that enough to be back to lifting heavy again by this point I would think. 

I'm glad both of them are sticking around the state to work with the strength coach. I don't expect a ton of improvement in one offseason, I mean at best these guys can probably only add 5 lbs of real muscle in that amount of time, but its a step in the right direction at least.

Next issue is going to be getting them to stack these offseasons together to really make progress. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by B1GKappa97

[Protec]

Getting stronger for Rossi and Addison is important but the mental game is where those guys have NHL issues. Not skill or talent. 
 

The biggest fault in comparing Hartman and Rossi is North American Vs. Euro. Experience too, but the Euro player can get to the OHL and be an impressive specialist guy his whole life. Always one of the best guys, not expecting to jump into scrums or grind anything he’s an offensive hockey player, not a hockey players who chips in some offense. In other words, he doesn’t know how to play another way. He’s been praised his whole life for the specialist role.

Hartman would have had a very different path to the NHL that required a greater versatility and level of toughness to make it that develops grizzle along the way. Therefore no effyou injections needed. The guy can fight, stick up for himself, deliver reverse hits, and put up some offense. 
 

Comparing Rossi and Hartman is silly. Suggesting them for a top six role or not is fine, but the fact guys keep saying Hartman to the 3rd or 4th line so Rossi can be “put in a situation to succeed” are nuts. That just proves Hartman has what Rossi doesn’t but some guys are using that as an argument to put the lesser guy in the upper role. Weird.
 

Guerin: “Yeah Hartman, you’re demoted to 3rd/4th line for your impact and near 1C numbers cause we really need to get the apathetic-Austrian in there. He was a 9th overall and has been pretty sweet in the minors. We know you can grind it out and don’t need effyou-injections so bottom-six is a much better role for you there @1.7M AAV. It just makes sense to the HW.com commenters.”

(Inside Hartman’s head with a dumbfounded expression.)
Hartman: “Well, I’m definitely not signing to stay playing in MN...”

[mnfaninnc]

20 hours ago, Protec said:

These are fine ideas but my point was more direct, the Wild don't have to pioneer all new lines. 

Looking for chemistry is a good idea. How good is the new chemistry? Same as the old, better, worse? 

It has been true to this point that any center with Kaprizov and the Norwegian Hobbit is gonna do fine. Will Ek make them unstoppable? You guys said it, would you want one dominant line and everything else or two more balanced top lines?

I really think it's unwise to begin counting Rossi chickens before they hatch again this season.

I'd say these are suggestions to try and see if they work, not written in stone lines. Though, I would really like to see Ek on the top line. I think it makes that line so much more dangerous, and it probably helps the line out 5v5 where they struggled last season. 

But, there is a good point in the analysis: Are these lines better than the ones that worked last season? You won't know unless you try them. 

[mnfaninnc]

3 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

Or at least I assume that's why they're so resistant to regular lifts, because I don't know any other reason they'd struggle so much to add functional weight at this point. If Addison was fully dedicated to his lifts, he ought to be a beast by now. Its been years since he was a pro. Rossi had myocarditis and had to take a break from lifting I'm sure, but he should be recovered from that enough to be back to lifting heavy again by this point I would think. 

I'm glad both of them are sticking around the state to work with the strength coach. I don't expect a ton of improvement in one offseason, I mean at best these guys can probably only add 5 lbs of real muscle in that amount of time, but its a step in the right direction at least.

If this is correct, then how did Ek put on so much muscle in his 1st offseason? He came in about 20 lbs. heavier, all muscle!

I think there may be a theme here, the guys aren't spending enough time bulking up. This may be a strength and conditioning coach problem with a guy who does not emphasize the value of strength. In the A, you get plenty of stretches off, and then game crunches, sometimes 3/3. These are lifting day opportunities. 

My suspicion is that the previous staff did not insist on the bulking up and the benefits it brings. Beckman, O'Rourke are other examples of guys who need strength and should have it by now! I'm all for developing the kids, but they've got to put in this work. If they are unwilling to do so, then ship them off for guys who will work hard enough! Hard work can overcome a slight dip in skill.

[mnfaninnc]

2 hours ago, Protec said:

Guerin: “Yeah Hartman, you’re demoted to 3rd/4th line for your impact and near 1C numbers cause we really need to get the apathetic-Austrian in there. He was a 9th overall and has been pretty sweet in the minors. We know you can grind it out and don’t need effyou-injections so bottom-six is a much better role for you there @1.7M AAV. It just makes sense to the HW.com commenters.”

(Inside Hartman’s head with a dumbfounded expression.)
Hartman: “Well, I’m definitely not signing to stay playing in MN...”

I don't believe that is how Hartman reacts, but the net result will be:

Guerin: Thanks, Hartsy for overperforming your contract thus far. I'll find you a team with a good fit.

Hartman: Thanks for not making me demand a trade!

[FredJohnson]

I don’t get the “he’s got to earn it” comments. That’s what the AHL and training camp are for not playing on the 4th  line in the NHL. If Hartman struggles again,  give Rossi a chance to PROVE he’s better at 1C.

[Will D. Ness]

2 hours ago, Protec said:

Comparing Rossi and Hartman is silly. Suggesting them for a top six role or not is fine, but the fact guys keep saying Hartman to the 3rd or 4th line so Rossi can be “put in a situation to succeed” are nuts. That just proves Hartman has what Rossi doesn’t but some guys are using that as an argument to put the lesser guy in the upper role. Weird.

Come on, it isn't a conspiracy.  It makes sense.  You either pull the trigger, or you trade him.  If you agree he deserves a shot, then give him that shot.  If not, then trade him.  

The worst thing you can do is a half measure.

[Mateo3xm]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:22 AM, mnfaninnc said:

So, my solution would be moving Ek up (and Zuccarello & Kaprizov are now pretty familiar with him)

They tried this already, remember?

it was not a very successful line.

what makes you think it’s going to work this time?

[Protec]

4 hours ago, Will D. Ness said:

Come on, it isn't a conspiracy.  It makes sense.  You either pull the trigger, or you trade him.  If you agree he deserves a shot, then give him that shot.  If not, then trade him.  

The worst thing you can do is a half measure.

I am not totally against giving Rossi a shot with better guys. I’m not sure the when and how is right away on top lines. I’ve heard the argument for start the season in the top six meaning an established NHL guy has to go down. For a guy who has not earned or proven anything yet, it doesn’t feel right. I don’t see Evason or Guerin doing that. Like, if you need to be put in a special situation to succeed, how does that help when the playoffs get hard? Do you get to say, “Oh, we’re more of a Euro-finesse team, we need to be on Olympic ice to get into a position to succeed.” 
 

For the sake of argument, I’m asking how do coaches or GMs who are supposed to win and rise in the standings remove their proven grizzle and inject apathetic Austrian unless he really plays great? That’s the only way it works and it has to work quick cause the season doesn’t allow mulligans. I mean Hartman has played center on that line successfully. Rossi has not. To me it seems most likely that Evason will wanna see Rossi do something, anything first before a top six role is given.

[Up North Guy]

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

They tried this already, remember?

it was not a very successful line.

what makes you think it’s going to work this time?

Yes they tried it for just a few games a couple years ago. Ek's game has changed dramatically since then. I believe it is worth a try. Leave nothing on the drawing board. Throw it out there and have a go.

[Protec]

The big plus is, the Wild can go back to what has worked. Can we expect Rossi to walk into a top six center role right away? Will Evason try that? I do believe Ek could be 1C on the top line and the start of the year would give you some games to test the chemistry. I don't think that's a terrible idea. 

Then if it works or not, you cross that bridge then. Rossi was on the wing for the most part last season so he'll need to be ready if he's gonna be top six center coming up. Not sure what they'd do if that doesn't work cause nobody thinks he is gonna be a bottom six guy. Send him down to the AHL again?

I think they're gonna put him on L3 and let him figure it out for good this time. If he plays the whole year and gets 21 points, at least that's Foligno level production.

[Protec]

7 hours ago, FredJohnson said:

I don’t get the “he’s got to earn it” comments. That’s what the AHL and training camp are for not playing on the 4th  line in the NHL. If Hartman struggles again,  give Rossi a chance to PROVE he’s better at 1C.

If Hartman struggles, yeah. Or if they start Rossi there and it's going good right away sure. 

I think there needs to be a good reason. Experimentation is an acceptable reason for a little while but how many games should it take to make a conclusion? 

I just think most organizations operate in a paradigm where you earn the raise or prove you're capable of handling the promotion. Rossi is a certain type of player not ideal for 10:00 TOI grinding. I understand that. I'm not sure it's wise to plug him into the most important roles on your team at age 22 with almost no NHL experience. More top guys on L1 but is the game or checking different? No, the defense might even be better than the matchups for L4. 

I just personally think the premise is flawed, that Hartman should get relegated. Perhaps for Ek I suppose. A shuffle isn't terrible but I would not even count on Rossi to make the team let alone play center in the top six. Let's see him lead the NHL preseason again before we start penciling him in anywhere.

[Will D. Ness]

1 hour ago, Protec said:

Let's see him lead the NHL preseason again before we start penciling him in anywhere.

Definitely.

[Tony Abbott]

11 hours ago, Protec said:

(Inside Hartman’s head with a dumbfounded expression.)
Hartman: “Well, I’m definitely not signing to stay playing in MN...”

Who cares?! He's gonna be 30 when his next contract kicks in. Why should the Wild want to be on the hook for that?

[Protec]

1 hour ago, Tony Abbott said:

Who cares?! He's gonna be 30 when his next contract kicks in. Why should the Wild want to be on the hook for that?

Reason one, he's been one of the best value players in the league and Swiss army knife for MN. Reason two, he has all the qualities MN says it wants in a player. Reason three, he has experience and familiarity with the Wild's top guys and has shown an ability to be good in the playoffs. Against Vegas a few years ago was the best of the last three playoffs but so it was for the team too. Plus he took a cheap deal and might do it again to win with MN's group.

People said things like this about Pavelski before he went to Dallas even older than 30. I just think it's funny how some people are ready to kick Hartman to the curb after being a core guy since getting here. Playing way better than his cost pretty consistently and adding much needed toughness. To be replaced by bunch of rookies who haven't even made the NHL.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Protec

[Tony Abbott]

From ages 31-34, Pavelski had more goals and points than Hartman's had in his whole career. I don't know if that's the guy I'm pointing to when talking about how Hartman's going to age.