Article: Can the Wild Keep Up With Rest Of the West?

[mnfaninnc]

Did I miss an announcement?

I thought I'd read all of Thomas' updates, but I missed that both Duhaime and Gustavsson had filed for arbitration. Interestingly, Addison did not. I'm not sure how this goes, but do the Wild try to get 2 years on the arbitration or 1 year? I think 2 years with Duhaime probably comes in at a fantastic price. 2 years on Goose2 might be a little risky, but you probably get a bargain in the 2nd year. 

[mnfaninnc]

35 minutes ago, Protec said:

I think this season would be a great time to put a three goaltender rotation for a few weeks here and there. Rest Fleury and Gus here and there and try to get Wallstedt in to learn some NHL hockey. How much of a battle will there be in the standings to allow that?

To do this, which I am in favor of, the Wild will need to have some money set back to accommodate the extra players. If I were Guerin, I'd like to have The Wall being influenced by MAF a lot this year. 

Just out of curiosity, sometimes the A has stretches where they're off. Des Moines is close. Could The Wall check in in St. Paul, watch from the Prossbox, be in the locker room with the big club with no intention to play him without being "called up?" At times, I would think that would be a couple of days well spent!

I'm hoping that The Wall gets about 5 starts this season. 

[Protec]

11 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Did I miss an announcement?

I thought I'd read all of Thomas' updates, but I missed that both Duhaime and Gustavsson had filed for arbitration. Interestingly, Addison did not. I'm not sure how this goes, but do the Wild try to get 2 years on the arbitration or 1 year? I think 2 years with Duhaime probably comes in at a fantastic price. 2 years on Goose2 might be a little risky, but you probably get a bargain in the 2nd year. 

I think age and/or number of NHL years is a factor allowing Gus & Duhaime arbitration rights.

[mnfaninnc]

On another topic, what the heck happened to Twitter? Since I'm not a subscriber, suddenly I can't check Russo, Lewis, Hayes or Gleeman without an account? 

[Protec]

4 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

I'm hoping that The Wall gets about 5 starts this season. 

This is one of the reasons I'm looking at Goligoski and Merrill and the results of signing RFAs because the Wild will wanna maintain some flexibility. The 3.2M between those guys could go a long way especially if they're not in the lineup.

Last season Goligoski looked really rusty when being thrown in randomly. Not sure what the Wild plan to do with these guys and how that defensive rotation will go. If Addison is replacing Dumba, I would expect the defense overall this season to be less reliable and physical. Faber in = good. Addison in = kinda good. Dumba out = not good. Overall = kinda good or not so good.

[Protec]

7 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

On another topic, what the heck happened to Twitter? Since I'm not a subscriber, suddenly I can't check Russo, Lewis, Hayes or Gleeman without an account? 

For $8bucks you can get a blue check too.(Verified, oh yeah. 😎)

I am also not on twitter and noticed links, etc. weren't working recently.

$8bucks is some milk and eggs ya know. Rather have that than Russo's opinion.

[Imyourhuckleberry]

59 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Goose2 has earned a raise, but do it incrementally, not all at once. 

Well, the Wild may not get to decide that if they don't get a deal done before the arbitration date arrives. If the Wild want a deal that best fits their plans, they may have to give more than they may have initially hoped on a 1-year deal.

[B1GKappa97]

38 minutes ago, Protec said:

Last season Goligoski looked really rusty when being thrown in randomly. Not sure what the Wild plan to do with these guys and how that defensive rotation will go. If Addison is replacing Dumba, I would expect the defense overall this season to be less reliable and physical. Faber in = good. Addison in = kinda good. Dumba out = not good. Overall = kinda good or not so good.

It's a good question. Everything I've seen speculated is Brodin and Faber paired together but they seem too similar to me and that doesn't exactly mitigate anyone's weaknesses or highlight their strengths. 

PERSONALLY.. I'd like to see them put Addison with Brodin. Putting him with Merrill or Goose is just asking to get burned, but Brodin should be able to cover for his defensive deficiencies while allowing him the opportunity to create offense for us. Exactly like he's been doing with Matt Dumba for, oh, ever. 

Then Faber can cover for Goose who can sell out for offense, and Merrill can be the rotational 7th defenseman he's meant to be. The guy cut his teeth in the playoffs, they should trust him in the regular season on the 3rd pairing too. 

[mnfaninnc]

5 hours ago, Imyourhuckleberry said:

Well, the Wild may not get to decide that if they don't get a deal done before the arbitration date arrives. If the Wild want a deal that best fits their plans, they may have to give more than they may have initially hoped on a 1-year deal.

I think arbitration can go in the Wild's favor too. Wild's argument: He did this in less than half the games this year and doesn't have a track record in other years. Goose2's argument: He finished the season with a tremendous sv% and had overtaken HoF candidate MAF for the starting job. 

This will be a tough one for the arbitrator to decide because both sides have valid arguments. I still think if I'm the Wild, I take the 2 year option.

I do think in Duhaime's case, the Wild have the better case. Duhaime gets his QO.

[mnfaninnc]

4 hours ago, B1GKappa97 said:

PERSONALLY.. I'd like to see them put Addison with Brodin. Putting him with Merrill or Goose is just asking to get burned, but Brodin should be able to cover for his defensive deficiencies while allowing him the opportunity to create offense for us. Exactly like he's been doing with Matt Dumba for, oh, ever. 

I'm thinking this may be what they do, and if they have the lead in the 3rd, Addison eats pine and Faber jumps in with Brodin as they scale down the pairings. I also see Brodin-Spurgeon killing penalties together and Faber-Middleton killing the 2nd part of the penalty.

[Up North Guy]

On 7/6/2023 at 11:16 AM, mnfaninnc said:

Did I miss an announcement?

I thought I'd read all of Thomas' updates, but I missed that both Duhaime and Gustavsson had filed for arbitration. Interestingly, Addison did not. I'm not sure how this goes, but do the Wild try to get 2 years on the arbitration or 1 year? I think 2 years with Duhaime probably comes in at a fantastic price. 2 years on Goose2 might be a little risky, but you probably get a bargain in the 2nd year. 

Duhaime can only get a one year contract through arbitration because ehe would be eligible for UFA after next season.

[Protec]

On 7/5/2023 at 11:04 PM, PiranhasOnIce said:

Maroon is signed at a cost of $800k to the Wikd (with $200k retained by TB) which is an upgrade for a better price over Reaves.  Rossi needs to be given the opportunity he was drafted for and not put on with lesser offense minded talent.  Time to sink or swim.  Putting him with the grinders makes as much sense as putting Reaves on the regular with #97.

Thanks for the correction. I don't know why I thought Maroon was @2M?

With Rossi, I think we agree he's not a grinder, but we discussed this at length last year about why Rossi isn't handed a top six role. Sink or swim is alright in theory but Rossi is both a valuable prospect who's development is in question AND a team who needs to have successful top lines. Sticking a young guy into a role above other players who are earning their spots more successfully than Rossi isn't what Evason appears to want. Especially if the top lines are less competitive which is how Rossi made the bottom six look when he was here. The primary reason he was sent down again. If Rossi could do anything to show he's earning it, they'd give him that chance. I am not in the camp who thinks Rossi's poor start last season was everyone else's fault. He has to prove something first. I don't think NHL coach should just slap a guy in there because he had a bunch of AHL points and once was a top pick. I'm saying, lets see some NHL success. Crying about 4th line minutes is bullshit and being the least effective guy doesn't get you a top six role. Prove you don't belong there or make those players better so your line is scoring. I want Rossi to succeed too so maybe early this season the Wild will have some time get Rossi into that role and try it out? Maybe some PP time with #97 or chances for him to get some confidence. I think this must frustrate a GM. I mean the skill is there and the player made the team last season. Therefore, you know as a coach or GM that the problems are mental. Examples of guys like Daigle, Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Drouin, etc. have been seen as talented high-pick players who were outstanding in juniors but haven't made it in the NHL. Careers fizzled. As of now, Rossi is still the least successful guy of the top fifteen or twenty guys from 2020. So it's a tough situation for Minnesota with Rossi, representing their 2020 1st rounder.

[mnfaninnc]

Thanks Up North for the Duhaime clarification. I thought it was odd, though, that he chose arbitration, his stats do not align with an arbitration hearing.

I didn't think Goose2 was going in that direction. I think that means that the agent and Guerin are quite far apart in their assessment of the next contract. I wonder how Guerin feels about players taking him to arbitration?

[Mateo3xm]

On 7/5/2023 at 11:23 AM, TCMooch said:

Honestly, I think we should play our young prospects, get them NHL experience and not care about wins and losses. With our pain when it comes to cap hits the next two years the team has a built-in excuse to finally "tank" the proper way.

I could not agree more. 
problem is I don’t think this fckn owner would let it happen.

 

[Mateo3xm]

On 7/7/2023 at 12:08 PM, Protec said:

Thanks for the correction. I don't know why I thought Maroon was @2M?

With Rossi, I think we agree he's not a grinder, but we discussed this at length last year about why Rossi isn't handed a top six role. Sink or swim is alright in theory but Rossi is both a valuable prospect who's development is in question AND a team who needs to have successful top lines. Sticking a young guy into a role above other players who are earning their spots more successfully than Rossi isn't what Evason appears to want. Especially if the top lines are less competitive which is how Rossi made the bottom six look when he was here. The primary reason he was sent down again. If Rossi could do anything to show he's earning it, they'd give him that chance. I am not in the camp who thinks Rossi's poor start last season was everyone else's fault. He has to prove something first. I don't think NHL coach should just slap a guy in there because he had a bunch of AHL points and once was a top pick. I'm saying, lets see some NHL success. Crying about 4th line minutes is bullshit and being the least effective guy doesn't get you a top six role. Prove you don't belong there or make those players better so your line is scoring. I want Rossi to succeed too so maybe early this season the Wild will have some time get Rossi into that role and try it out? Maybe some PP time with #97 or chances for him to get some confidence. I think this must frustrate a GM. I mean the skill is there and the player made the team last season. Therefore, you know as a coach or GM that the problems are mental. Examples of guys like Daigle, Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Drouin, etc. have been seen as talented high-pick players who were outstanding in juniors but haven't made it in the NHL. Careers fizzled. As of now, Rossi is still the least successful guy of the top fifteen or twenty guys from 2020. So it's a tough situation for Minnesota with Rossi, representing their 2020 1st rounder.

You simply love to beat a dead horse don't you?

it’s like you can’t comprehend what some of us have been saying to you. 

you don’t put a guy like Rossi on the 4th line. You play to his strengths.

All those guys ahead of him aren’t playing on the 4th line. I’m willing to guarantee it. They are getting at least 3rd line minute’s because that’s how you develop a player with his potential.

youre btching about points when he’s playing on the 4th with probably well under 10 min a game.

how often did you see boldy on the 4th line starting out?

answer was almost never.

Rossi needs to be played higher in the lineup if you want offense. He proved he could be successful up there by leading the frickin preseason in points. Obviously it’s different in the regular season but the potential was shown.

Don’t give me “crying about fourth line min is bullshit”.

have any idea how ridiculously ignorant that is? 
 

the pick is in the past, deal with it. You love to come on here and bitch about who we should have took 3 years ago as if it matters right now.

You’ve probably posted a dozen comments saying how you told everyone that they should have picked someone else. Nobody care dude.

[Protec]

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

you don’t put a guy like Rossi on the 4th line. You play to his strengths.

What strengths are those? AHL success?

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

All those guys ahead of him aren’t playing on the 4th line. I’m willing to guarantee it. They are getting at least 3rd line minute’s because that’s how you develop a player with his potential.

If this is referring to Jarvis, Mercer, and Lundell, none of them were automatically plugged into a top six role.

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

how often did you see boldy on the 4th line starting out?

answer was almost never.

Boldy scored his first game.

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

Rossi needs to be played higher in the lineup if you want offense. He proved he could be successful up there by leading the frickin preseason in points. Obviously it’s different in the regular season but the potential was shown.

Don’t give me “crying about fourth line min is bullshit”.

have any idea how ridiculously ignorant that is? 

It doesn't make sense to blame the coaches and linemates when other 4th liners like Dewar, Shaw, Walker, had success. Saying a guy should just be elevated to top six in the NHL having shown nothing is what seems ridiculous. Just cause a player has skill or was once a top pick doesn't mean NHL coaches and GMs put em in the top six despite being totally ineffective.

1 hour ago, Mateo3xm said:

the pick is in the past, deal with it. You love to come on here and bitch about who we should have took 3 years ago as if it matters right now.

You’ve probably posted a dozen comments saying how you told everyone that they should have picked someone else. Nobody care dude.

Its relevant to the majority of conversations here. Plenty of MN fans do care who the Wild pick. Your post does not appear to be apathetic, so somebody cares. If you're just noticing me beating a dead horse now, then you've missed a few years of hockeywilderness'n going back to XGMCF era. 

I hope this year is the one for Rossi. He has to prove it no matter what role. I don't see him being entitled to a top six role.

[mnfaninnc]

On 7/8/2023 at 9:07 PM, Mateo3xm said:

You simply love to beat a dead horse don't you?

it’s like you can’t comprehend what some of us have been saying to you. 

you don’t put a guy like Rossi on the 4th line. You play to his strengths.

All those guys ahead of him aren’t playing on the 4th line. I’m willing to guarantee it. They are getting at least 3rd line minute’s because that’s how you develop a player with his potential.

youre btching about points when he’s playing on the 4th with probably well under 10 min a game.

how often did you see boldy on the 4th line starting out?

answer was almost never.

Rossi needs to be played higher in the lineup if you want offense. He proved he could be successful up there by leading the frickin preseason in points. Obviously it’s different in the regular season but the potential was shown.

Don’t give me “crying about fourth line min is bullshit”.

have any idea how ridiculously ignorant that is? 
 

the pick is in the past, deal with it. You love to come on here and bitch about who we should have took 3 years ago as if it matters right now.

You’ve probably posted a dozen comments saying how you told everyone that they should have picked someone else. Nobody care dude.

Apparently we both do. I also lament passing over Lundell in favor of Rossi. To me, playing a structured game was perfect for Lundell with his size, while I thought Rossi would be picked ahead of where he was. Sometimes, it's not the most talented guy you pick, it's the best fit for your organization.

At the time of the draft, when Lundell was suggested, mainly because his game was far more like Ek or Koivu, many people kept stating that he didn't have any offense, though his offensive numbers were far ahead of Ek or Koivu in like years. But, now we have to deal with Rossi.

Rossi led the preseason in scoring as you stated. Could someone please explain to me how, then, he didn't take/earn a spot as a top 6 center to start the year? I assume there is a ladder process and you have to take a spot. Most of the "climbing the ladder" is done in training camp and practice. But, what chance did Rossi have of leaping past guys? When Hartman came out of the gate ineffective and injured, why didn't Rossi get a chance to take that spot? Why was it Gaudreau? 

So, from what we could see, the ladder looked something like this coming into the season:

1. Hartman
2. Ek
3. Gaudreau
4. Steel
5. Rossi
6. Dewar

Why couldn't Rossi leap over Steel, Gaudrau and Hartman? I don't think he had a shot against Ek, especially since they were looking at the GREEF line as their dominant line. Was this just an Evason F-up? What must you do to earn your coach's trust? It would seem to me that leading the team in preseason points was a good place to start, but the guys above him on the ladder didn't really play much. 

I think here is where there is a philosophical difference in the approach that Protec, myself vs. Matteo and others have here: Is the spot earned or given. And if it's earned, what is the criteria? With Evason, it can and should be questioned, because in the previous year's playoffs, he completely butchered a goaltending decision. 

I would also generalize the following, I would anticipate that the "earning" the spot would be more true of our older posters, and the "giving" the spot would be more true of our younger posters. Generally speaking, there is a generational divide as to how to handle this. Which brings me to another point/question: Is Dean Evason the right coach for this bunch of guys?

When Evason was named coach, he was well known for his development in Milwaukee, but, as Evason has become successful in the regular season, has he moved away from his development ways and paid more attention to winning? Winning, I would say, was a byproduct of paying attention to developing the players and making them better early on. Now, it seems like Evason relies more on the vets. Evason is 59. Could it be that we need a younger coach in there with a little different mentality? One who isn't afraid of a younger player's mistakes and will play them if they're better? 

Personally, I think we get this answer at the end of this season. Should we make the playoffs and fail to get out of round 1, my belief is that a new coach, likely a younger coach, replaces Evason for the '24 season. Probably a guy who can relate to the younger players and international players better.

[Willy the poor boy]

9 minutes ago, mnfaninnc said:

Personally, I think we get this answer at the end of this season. Should we make the playoffs and fail to get out of round 1, my belief is that a new coach, likely a younger coach, replaces Evason for the '24 season. Probably a guy who can relate to the younger players and international players better.

If that's the case they had better hope like hell they get it right. To replace a proven commodity with an unknown and getting it wrong could set this team back for another decade. After 20+ years my patience is running thin. 

[Protec]

31 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

If that's the case they had better hope like hell they get it right. To replace a proven commodity with an unknown and getting it wrong could set this team back for another decade. After 20+ years my patience is running thin. 

Well I wouldn’t hold my breath. Waiting over twenty years and seeing Vegas and Seattle get their clubs going while MN and Columbus struggle is the hand we’re dealt.

The Wild just need to be willing to admit when there’s a problem. How many playoff series losses can your coach/team rack up before you consider change? Or how many years do you wait for your prospects to break through? Do you hand guys a spot or extend the coach cause you need a warm body in there? 
 

Handicapped roster or not, I think Dean needs to be better. Special teams did improve and Ek got hurt at the worst time. I’m hoping Rossi and Evason both get over the hump this year. They need it, the Wild need it, the fans, etc. At the same time, you see Maurice go to FL and make it to the Finals. Not his first. DeBoer goes from Vegas where they went deep into the playoffs to Dallas and what’dya know, there’s a Conference finals. Similar to comparing prospects who have had better success than Rossi, why wouldn’t we consider the difference between coaches who also have track records showing either success or failure? It’s not gold stars for participation, if the Wild moved on from Dean or traded Rossi, I’m totally cool with it even though I’d rather see them just have success in MN. 

The Wild are a good team, stable, good leadership, talent. I hope Maroon is a missing ingredient. Better than #44, better than #75, Maroon is awesome to wear #20 and shit on Suter’s history in MN. “Eff that guy” he’s saying coming into a group where he can be an influence. Boldy, Rossi, Beckman, Walker, Faber, Dewar, Addison, or any other young players who could benefit from the grit-injections, should appreciate Maroon making the Wild are benefactors. 
 

If Faber and Boldy specifically can be less nice and learn to be more Maroony that would be amazing.

[Willy the poor boy]

34 minutes ago, Protec said:

Well I wouldn’t hold my breath. Waiting over twenty years and seeing Vegas and Seattle get their clubs going while MN and Columbus struggle is the hand we’re dealt.

 

I'm not so sure it's the hand we're dealt. I complained quite a bit with the Risebrough. LeMaire tandem while the press and most fans drooled over being fooled by a season of great tandem goaltending. 

36 minutes ago, Protec said:

The Wild just need to be willing to admit when there’s a problem. How many playoff series losses can your coach/team rack up before you consider change? Or how many years do you wait for your prospects to break through? Do you hand guys a spot or extend the coach cause you need a warm body in there? 
 

For me, he's proven he can win. My answer to your question is when he has a complete team. Over the past two years how many even thought they had the talent to be a playoff team? And those of you who did, who thought they were better than a one and done?

40 minutes ago, Protec said:

Handicapped roster or not, I think Dean needs to be better. Special teams did improve and Ek got hurt at the worst time. I’m hoping Rossi and Evason both get over the hump this year. They need it, the Wild need it, the fans, etc. At the same time, you see Maurice go to FL and make it to the Finals. Not his first. DeBoer goes from Vegas where they went deep into the playoffs to Dallas and what’dya know, there’s a Conference finals. Similar to comparing prospects who have had better success than Rossi, why wouldn’t we consider the difference between coaches who also have track records showing either success or failure? It’s not gold stars for participation, if the Wild moved on from Dean or traded Rossi, I’m totally cool with it even though I’d rather see them just have success in MN. 

If they moved on from DE he wouldn't be unemployed very long and 'my guess' is the Wild would regret it. Is Deano perfect? No, he needs to improve like every other coach in the league. It's a rare thing when a coach retires, they're usually fired.

 

44 minutes ago, Protec said:

If Faber and Boldy specifically can be less nice and learn to be more Maroony that would be amazing.

Who better to teach them than DE along with Maroon? Hell, his own coaches need to wear shoulder pads and face masks after a suspenseful win...

[Protec]

25 minutes ago, Willy the poor boy said:

I'm not so sure it's the hand we're dealt. I complained quite a bit with the Risebrough. LeMaire tandem while the press and most fans drooled over being fooled by a season of great tandem goaltending. 

For me, he's proven he can win. My answer to your question is when he has a complete team. Over the past two years how many even thought they had the talent to be a playoff team? And those of you who did, who thought they were better than a one and done?

If they moved on from DE he wouldn't be unemployed very long and 'my guess' is the Wild would regret it. Is Deano perfect? No, he needs to improve like every other coach in the league. It's a rare thing when a coach retires, they're usually fired.

 

Who better to teach them than DE along with Maroon? Hell, his own coaches need to wear shoulder pads and face masks after a suspenseful win...

Good points, I don’t really disagree. I love seeing Dean-O throwing punches around after the win and Darcy has the bunk-beds to absorb the flying-fists.

I’m not ripping Rossi or Dean. I just think questions will remain until they prove otherwise. The NHL or the Cup are the prize so AHL or regular season is great but still a long way from the real goal.

I hope Rossi can make it and Dean can get a playoff series win.

 

[Willy the poor boy]

11 minutes ago, Protec said:

Good points, I don’t really disagree. I love seeing Dean-O throwing punches around after the win and Darcy has the bunk-beds to absorb the flying-fists.

I’m not ripping Rossi or Dean. I just think questions will remain until they prove otherwise. The NHL or the Cup are the prize so AHL or regular season is great but still a long way from the real goal.

I hope Rossi can make it and Dean can get a playoff series win.

 

My whole thing is, just because you replace a coach doesn't mean you're going to get it right. In fact, I'm sure the numbers would bear out that most times you're going to get it wrong. It would be hard for me to pull the trigger on a coach whose shown he can have success. Maybe it's just a matter of playing like hell to get there and running out of gas when it counts because you're so undermanned. Like I said, get a team that's on a level playing field, see how they fare and then make your decisions. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Willy the poor boy
clarity

[Will D. Ness]

2 hours ago, mnfaninnc said:

Is the spot earned or given.

There is always nuance.  Rossi has not earned a spot.  Not even close.  Does he deserve one last opportunity?  I think so.  Especially if we all think he was not mentally ready last year.

[Protec]

14 minutes ago, Will D. Ness said:

 Does he deserve one last opportunity?  I think so.  Especially if we all think he was not mentally ready last year.

Rossi for sure should get more opportunity. He's still young and obviously skilled but the North American game isn't easy for little guys. He's gotta be given more opportunity but he's gotta make good on it too. I'm not saying he has to begin leading the team in scoring but he's gotta go out and show something. If not, the team will have to give some opportunity to other guys who deserve it.

[mnfaninnc]

Guys, I'm not ripping on Deano with this question. The facts remain, 0-for professional coaching career in the playoffs. It happened before he he got here too, but usually they were swept. 

He's been an outstanding coach in the regular season, so far the best coach in franchise history with taking care of business against the lower 20 teams. But, he cannot seem to be successful coaching in a series. 

If you couple this with moving away from what got you the job: Developing the youth and giving them opportunities to succeed, then you've got an organizational problem. If he can get us to the playoffs again and win a series, we'll all be happy, but the last series wins we've had were under Mike Yeo. Yeo, I thought, ran the team too hard in the regular season, but his strategy in the playoffs was pretty good.

Evason is the opposite. And, it is playoff glory we seek. We need a guy who gets us an invitation and then gets us through rounds with clever moves. As Guerin said on Wild on 7th, you need incredible luck to win the cup. Bounces and injuries have to go your way. It's not a case of better lucky than good, it's a case of better lucky and good. So far, Evason has had only poor luck in the playoffs. He has a long track record of this. 

One last thing on the Wild on 7th broadcast: I did not believe what Guerin said about the picks. He claimed he said he'd like to focus on centers. He downplayed the size which I didn't believe. When I said the 1st 2 picks were Guerin's picks, I didn't mean that Guerin said "we're taking Stramel or Kumpulainen," I meant he instructed Judd to take large bodied centers, but Judd was the scouting guy who had to pick the right ones. It was Judd who chose Stramel over Ritchie. Both have size. I do believe that size and position were directed to be obtained with the 1st 2 picks and that was Guerin's contribution. It was also fairly obvious that this is exactly what we needed.